Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#551

Post by dwaite » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 6:49 AM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #193

etchalon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You find it amusing that Apple vets their developers by … vetting their developers?

By going through their public comments where they complain about what Apple is doing? Sounds like a poor way to vet developers.

This is hardly out of the blue. Epic's CEO testified how they not only premeditated breaking their contract with Apple, but arranged a PR campaign around it and orchestrated a 'grass roots' effort at the same time.

Blocking Fortnite updates on iOS devices was an inconvenience for users compared to terminating the use of an entire gaming marketplace due to the next round of vigilante contract violation by Epic.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#552

Post by VladTheImpalor » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 6:51 AM UTC

fnordpiglet wrote: post #475

snowpid wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" But the reality of America is much more complex than that, and that’s accelerated since the 1950’s, and was completely broken down in the 1990’s. " You complain a lack of seing the complexity of American food but instead you have a simple view of the European cultures. Have you been ever in any European country and when? I have the feeling you havent been.

I’ve traveled through most of Europe and the UK for pleasure but also regularly visit Germany, Italy, France, Ireland, Scotland, England, and Switzerland for work. If I go to your average Italian city I simply won’t find good Thai food. I’ll get a lot of great Italian food for sure. But no Malay, no Nepalese, no afghan, no Peruvian, etc. I’m sure you’ll find counter examples, but the US genuinely is a melting pot wit…

I can’t say I agree with this assessment. There’s good Thai food in NYC, but probably less so in rural New York. In the same way, there’s amazing Thai food in Berlin, but probably not in rural Bavaria.

Also, in your average Italian city, the average meal will still be healthier than the average American meal. The idea of food deserts is what doesn’t exist in Europe, at least not Western Europe. The local mom and pop shops still have veggies and fruits, and I was amazed to find none within biking distance when I was in the US.

I don’t want to have to need to shop at Trader Joes, Whole Foods, or live in a posh city to avoid having to eat over-processed food and be constipated all of the time.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#553

Post by dwaite » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 6:51 AM UTC

EMIRELADERO wrote: post #531

inspector-g wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know which sections of the DMA address this? Genuinely asking because I’d like to read from the source here.

Article 6(7): > The gatekeeper shall allow providers of services and providers of hardware, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same hardware and software features accessed or controlled via the operating system or virtual assistant listed in the designation decision pursuant to Article 3(9) as are available to services or hardware provided by the g…

So are you saying that Apple is not providing the same API to third party marketplaces as they leverage in their own App Store?

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#554

Post by readyman » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 6:54 AM UTC

astlouis44 wrote: post #41

Amazing how fast this decision was reversed. It's truly awesome to see regulators standing up to walled gardens. This will greatly benefit both developers and consumers.

How would this benefit consumers?

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#555

Post by dwaite » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 6:56 AM UTC

modeless wrote: post #288

kbf wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not defending Apple’s stance here, but I think the point they were making is that Epic had already admitted to intentionally breaking their previous agreements with Apple for their own gain. The court then ruled that Apple could ban Epic for any reason. Sweeney essentially called the new terms illegitimate while at the same time entering a new agreement where those terms applied to Epic. It’s somewhat understanda…

They believed in good faith that Apple's terms were illegal. There is nothing wrong with breaking an illegal contract. Yes, they lost in court but it wasn't a foregone conclusion. Apple's continuing retaliation is petty and likely to get them in trouble.

> There is nothing wrong with breaking an illegal contract.

It is not an illegal contract. It is a contract that Epic _hopes_ is illegal.

I don't get to ignore my home mortgage payments without consequence even if I believe in my truest of heart that giving money to a bank is wrong. In this metaphor, Apple here is the bank saying that Epic has a habit of not paying back loans, and has publicly stated how they think the loan they are applying for is 'hot garbage'.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#556

Post by dwaite » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 7:02 AM UTC

Aldo_MX wrote: post #502

abduhl wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Apple's terms and contract weren't illegal.

Oh yeah, forbidding developers from telling their customers that they can buy a subscription for less money in their website is definitely not illegal. The fact that Apple is now regulated is definitely not a symptom of the illegality of their terms. Definitely not.

Google and Facebook are among others now regulated as well.

The European Economic Zone sets regulations around economic policy. Their creation of the DMA was that while the markets did not have monopolistic abuse, that there were areas that still did not have _enough_ competition.

Now I would argue the DMA is misguided, because they are basically trying to regulate in a counter to the network effect. The problem is (for example) that even with barriers lowered, an upstart messaging app cannot compete with WhatsApp because they still cannot grow by the network effects the way WhatsApp did, because WhatsApp already exists and is popular. An upstart will still have to already be on target to become larger than WhatsApp in order to supplant them.

Alternative Marketplaces have been possible on Android for years and really haven't succeeded except in markets where Google Play is unavailable. Why would developers put time and effort into being where nobody is? How does anything in the DMA change their minds - better transaction fees on no sales?

The DMA does give companies an opportunity to innovate, such as how MacPaw is going to have a SetApp Marketplace which is a subscription service for mostly utility apps (similar to Apple Arcade as a first-party marketplace for games). But I would argue there is no way SetApp will be as popular as the App Store - it is a business opportunity, not market competition. I would say this is akin to F-Droid - it is an alternative marketplace on Android, but not one that really competes with Play.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#557

Post by Hamuko » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 7:06 AM UTC

tymscar wrote: post #523

8note wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a much better experience on windows to not be stuck with a windows store. Third party stores like steam are way better

Sadly this comparison is very misleading. Steam was a thing for a decade before the windows store and it has been basically the default. The more game stores that appeared over time the worse it has been for the gamers.

>has been basically the default

It came pre-installed on your operating system?

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#558

Post by interactivecode » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 7:10 AM UTC

diego_sandoval wrote: post #536

zmmmmm wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When reason fails to explain people's actions, it gives you a measure of the strength of their ideology on something. In this case, you can see how deeply they believe in the concept of complete authoritarian control of their ecosystem. Enough that logic and practical outcomes barely matter in comparison.

That ideology hasn't stopped them from becoming the most valuable company in the world, so I wouldn't disregard it from the point of view of practical outcomes.

Dictators and monopolies are always very rich.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#559

Post by EMIRELADERO » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 7:12 AM UTC

dwaite wrote: post #553

EMIRELADERO wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Article 6(7): > The gatekeeper shall allow providers of services and providers of hardware, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same hardware and software features accessed or controlled via the operating system or virtual assistant listed in the designation decision pursuant to Article 3(9) as are available to services or hardware provided by the g…

So are you saying that Apple is not providing the same API to third party marketplaces as they leverage in their own App Store?

Pretty much, plus to independent developers who wish to use the IPA installation off the web feature. (The Article speaks about "features", not just APIs)

Remember that it says "free of charge". 50 cents/install past 1M installs is not free of charge now is it?

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#560

Post by modeless » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 7:24 AM UTC

dwaite wrote: post #555

modeless wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They believed in good faith that Apple's terms were illegal. There is nothing wrong with breaking an illegal contract. Yes, they lost in court but it wasn't a foregone conclusion. Apple's continuing retaliation is petty and likely to get them in trouble.

> There is nothing wrong with breaking an illegal contract. It is not an illegal contract. It is a contract that Epic _hopes_ is illegal. I don't get to ignore my home mortgage payments without consequence even if I believe in my truest of heart that giving money to a bank is wrong. In this metaphor, Apple here is the bank saying that Epic has a habit of not paying back loans, and has publicly stated how they think t…

Epic didn't just feel it was "wrong". They had legal arguments with merit. And they did prevail in one of them, so in fact the contract was illegal in part. Equating legitimate legal disputes with simply not paying your mortgage for no good reason is absurd.