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Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

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Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#551

Post by pkulak »

readingnews wrote: post #86

I just replaced a furnace... everyone I called for a quote would not touch a heat pump with a 20foot pole, or they wanted prices that were 2X what a separate furnace and AC would cost to install. It was very strange. This is the second home where I had this experience.. basically, they really did not want to install it. I ended up going with gas as no local person would install/warranty a heat pump, or, it was priced…

Tradesfolk are _so_ political, it boggles my mind. I own a house, and need to get quotes for HVAC and plumbing stuff occasionally, and holy shit, I do not look forward to those conversations. Just nodding my head for 15 minutes while they look over my setup ranting about what they heard on cable TV last week.

I mean, it's good to force me out of my bubble, but maybe not right into the deep end where, and this is from about 8 hours ago, "heat pumps are no good in the Pacific Northwest because they use more electricity than resistive heating". The PNW: a climate renowned for two things: rain and mild temperatures, where heat pumps are no good. All I can do is nod and say "uh huh".

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#552

Post by pkulak »

Casteil wrote: post #229
readingnews wrote: post #86

I just replaced a furnace... everyone I called for a quote would not touch a heat pump with a 20foot pole, or they wanted prices that were 2X what a separate furnace and AC would cost to install. It was very strange. This is the second home where I had this experience.. basically, they really did not want to install it. I ended up going with gas as no local person would install/warranty a heat pump, or, it was priced…

Price gouging seems like standard practice for HVAC companies. I'd like to replace my 25+ yr old system (gas furnace/AC) with a new gas furnace & heat pump so I can have the option of heating with gas or electricity... but when I ran this by an HVAC technician who was here for a service call, I got the same kind of exorbitant figures thrown at me with the heat pump in the equation. Same technician wanted $750 to repl…

I got three quotes for a new water heater just this week. One was more than twice the other. I'll see where number three comes in. $1900 for a resistive electric water heater seems steep, but at least there's an argument that it's reasonable. 4 grand is just so out there that I have to believe it was personal somehow.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#553

Post by [deleted] »

Reason077 wrote: post #532
jhallenworld wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more like 2.5 to 3x for good ICE cars (they are around 30% efficient- I think it's been going up over the years, in the past I assumed 15%): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency#:~:text=in%2... . But anyway, the big issue is for electric cars fast chargers, more like $.48 / kwh.. For carbon emissions, the WTW (Well to wheel) efficiency is more important- they are about the same unfortunately (we need…

The fleet average real-world fuel efficiency for light petrol vehicles in my country, based on government data, is 9.2 litres/100km. (I'm guessing it's significantly worse than this in the USA where the average vehicle is larger and there is less focus on fuel efficiency) At 8.9 kWh per litre, that means gasoline takes 81.88 kWh to get you 100 km. A typical EV, on the other hand, will use about 18 kWh to go 100 km (a…

[deleted]

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#554

Post by Aloha »

thoughtstheseus wrote: post #550
Aloha wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was cheap 10 years ago because the global price of gas was cheap, its not now.

No such thing as a global gas price. Natural gas pricing is regional as it cannot be easily transported.

Australia exports 41% of its gas.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#555

Post by dripton »

erikpt-work wrote: post #542
dripton wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Export tariffs are actually unconstitutional in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import-Export_Clause

Looking at that clause, it appears that it's only unconstitutional if the individual states do it. Doesn't say anything about the federal government or Congress. Or am I reading it wrong?

There are two clauses that ban export tariffs. One applies to states, the other to the Feds.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#556

Post by conductr »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #197
ajross wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's not an innovative sector, though a lot of the blame belongs with the hardware manufacturers and not the installers. FWIW, the quotes I got for installation weren't that awful. But getting it hooked up to the Nest thermostat turned out to be a 2-day process and require a subcontractor to show up.

Probably a bit more nuanced than that. A lot of the installers run small businesses. If one of these units goes wrong or if they do the install wrong because it's new to them, then that's lost time and lost revenue rectifying it.

This is it. They price installs at generally a single day for complete system swap for install time assuming ducts are reused and never want even spend the travel time coming back on another day in my area. If they do, it’s eroding the profit they expected on your job. They usually have special crews that only do installs and also generally like to keep to a small list of manufacturers so they can keep as quick and efficient as possible. New and unfamiliar tech throws a wrench in that.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#557

Post by sundaeofshock »

thoughtstheseus wrote: post #550
Aloha wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was cheap 10 years ago because the global price of gas was cheap, its not now.

No such thing as a global gas price. Natural gas pricing is regional as it cannot be easily transported.

US exported 6.9 trillion cubic feet of natural gas in 2022.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/natural-gas/imports-and-...

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#558

Post by rapjr9 »

"supercharge the gas-to-electric transition by making it as cheap and easy as possible for their residents to switch."

If you really want to make it super easy to switch, design new heat pumps that people can install themselves without having to pay a contractor to install one. Start with window units that look like air conditioners.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#559

Post by Retric »

rapjr9 wrote: post #558

"supercharge the gas-to-electric transition by making it as cheap and easy as possible for their residents to switch." If you really want to make it super easy to switch, design new heat pumps that people can install themselves without having to pay a contractor to install one. Start with window units that look like air conditioners.

Window heat pumps already exist. Ex: https://www.lg.com/us/air-conditioners/lg-lw1216hr-window-ai... or https://www.compactappliance.com/koldfront-12000-btu-heat-co...

Mini splits are also fairly easy to install and don’t take up a window.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#560

Post by zrail »

dhosek wrote: post #404
lotsofpulp wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, but gas utility supply means a much smaller generator is needed just to operate the fans and thermostat and much less on-hand fuel is needed to operate the generator. Natural gas is just a very convenient and very dense source of energy when you need it most.

In the entirety of my life, most of which has been in the Chicago area, I have never seen a home with a generator for the fans and thermostat of a home. For that matter, the only home generator I ever saw was one my grandfather bought which he only used once to see if it worked.

They're pretty common where I live (SE Michigan) because the electrical grid is quite a bit less reliable than the gas distribution network. To the point where 5-10% of customers in the service area lose power in any given big storm.

We have an (almost[1]) all electric house. A year ago we lost power for six days. Last spring we had a generator installed. Over the summer we lost grid power for five days but the generator worked flawlessly the entire time.

I don't like having gas for a number of reasons and if the grid was more reliable we would never have bothered, but, for us, it's just so much more reliable.

[1]: We have two HVAC systems that service different sides of our duplex-ish house. One side is a ground source heat pump, the other is a 95% efficient gas furnace.

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