Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe that it would be interesting to know what the numbers actually are. There is the common saying that you are more likely to get in an accident on the way to the airport than traveling on the plane, but knowing what the likelihood of both of those as well as the likelihood of an accident on a max could show this all to be hysteria or actually well founded.
Voting with wallets to counter negative trend in an industry made safe by regulations written in blood, seems more reasonable than hysterical.
Is my plane a 737 MAX?
551–560 of 579 posts
Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?
#552Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?
#553Earlier quoted context omitted.
Normally I would agree with them that making the recording much longer than it plausibly needs to be is not a good idea. Preventing life-or-death situations is about the only reason I'm in favour of recording anything at all. However evidently 2 hours of sound isn't long enough. Just because a plane keeps going for more a few hours doesn't mean the incident wasn't serious enough to warrant recording.
Sure, more time would be good for investigators. But pilots have legitimate concerns about these recordings. Those concerns need to be heard and addressed so this change can be made safely.
Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?
#554Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've heard a lot of people say this in these comment threads, and I think this glosses over the actual issue: safety is getting worse, not better or even staying the same. So it's MORE statistically significant than it was. The trend is heading the wrong way. Air safety going down is a trend you want to stop ASAP. Not wait around until it's just as dangerous as something else like driving your car.
> safety is getting worse Record passenger miles flown [1] with years of zero fatalities since, I believe, 2020 [2][3] refutes this hypothesis. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RPM [2] https://www.airlines.org/dataset/safety-record-of-u-s-air-ca... [3] https://www.airlines.org/dataset/safety-record-of-u-s-air-ca...
Overall statistics improving doesn’t mean you have permission to start throwing a random person off the plane every year.
There’s an xkcd about an online seller and a bobcat…
Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?
#555Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure, more time would be good for investigators. But pilots have legitimate concerns about these recordings. Those concerns need to be heard and addressed so this change can be made safely.
That's crazy. I would venture to say that most workplaces have security cameras, many with sound recording, that can be accessed at any time by management or building security. But commercial airline pilots can't be recorded?
> I would venture to say that most workplaces have security cameras, many with sound recording, that can be accessed at any time by management or building security
In the presence of surveillance equipment you should behave as if this is the case but is it? Can management freely access audio and video recordings of employees? I’d be very surprised if that is the case in a corporate setting and I have never seen anything to suggest that it is. I would absolutely like to have a voice in how recordings of me are used by management. Pilots were smart enough to organize and demand that voice.
Every organization I have ever worked for had strict data retention policies to protect the organization in case of a lawsuit. If there were audio or visual recordings of the workplace they were retained only as long as required by law. I have never seen those recordings myself or heard of them being used in any analysis. Already in this comment section the suggestion has been made to mine these recordings with “AI”. This is the kind of ill conceived problem seeking pilots are right to be afraid of.
For the recordings to be useful pilots need to communicate freely. That means they need to feel safe from retaliation. Without these protections pilots will not communicate freely and the situation may actually be less safe.
Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?
#556Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure, more time would be good for investigators. But pilots have legitimate concerns about these recordings. Those concerns need to be heard and addressed so this change can be made safely.
> But pilots have legitimate concerns about these recordings. They have concerns. Legitimacy is a matter of opinion. > Those concerns need to be heard and addressed so this change can be made safely. Actually, they don't. Pilots trying to hide evidence are free to find another job that isn't as safety critical.
This is an uncharitable and dangerous take. If you are unwilling to listen to their concerns how can you so confidently dismiss them?
Pilots care about safety. They’re on the same planes as the passengers. They have a personal interest in improving safety. Their concerns should be heard and given consideration.
If pilots don’t feel safe communicating they wont, which undermines safety for everyone involved. Creating a disincentive to communicate is dangerous.
I agree we should have more data for the purpose of investigating incidents but the blameless culture must be maintained. If pilots have doubts or concerns about that they need to be addressed.
Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?
#557Earlier quoted context omitted.
The was no pilot error or equipment malfunction in that incident. (I suppose you could look at the pilot of the dash 8 and wonder why he didn't hold short, but he could have been driving a golf cart and still made an runway incursion.) It didn't even happen in the air. Boeing was rightly blamed for misleading everyone about the nature of the MAX8. It is a materially different airframe, and it required different syste…
> Boeing was rightly blamed for misleading everyone about the nature of the MAX8 Pilots I am personally friends with who fly for American, Southwest, and United, disagree. They feel they were fully prepped for the differences in the airframe from their first flight on it, pre-crashes, and have said that they blame the carriers that crashed for not prepping their pilots the same. It's entirely possible that I missed s…
Boeing noticed that the thing didn't fly like a 737, so they made some software to change its flight characteristics to be more like a 737. They failed to disclose this, and when it "activated" in 2018, a plane crashed. This is when FAA learned about it. Then another one crashed because of the same thing only a few months later.
The DOJ made a criminal complaint against Boeing, resulting in a deferred prosecution agreement and a $2.5 billion penalty. MAX was grounded for years.
> They feel they were fully prepped for the differences in the airframe
Your pilot friends are either wrong or they had inside information and probably should have blown the whistle. Realistically, they probably actually did feel prepared. This is the crux of the criminal fraud action.
Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?
#558If you are outraged and want to be more than performative about it, check if your electeds are on the Senate Aviation Safety, Operations, and Innovation [1] and/or House Aviation Subcommittees [2]. If not, the broader Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation [3] and/or House Transportation & Infrastructure Committees [4]. Call their office (D.C., preferably) or submit a comment noting the issue and your concerns a…
Subject: Concerns Regarding the FAA Exemption Request by Boeing for the 737 MAX Aircraft [YOUR NAME] [YOUR ADDRESS] [DATE] [REPRESENTATIVE NAME] [REPRESENTATIVE OFFICE ADDRESS] Dear [REPRESENTATIVE/SENATOR] [REPRESENTATIVE LAST NAME], I am reaching out to you as a concerned constituent from [CITY], [STATE], to address a pressing issue that has significant implications for the safety and reliability of our nation's av…
Appreciate your contributing this. Some modest critique: I would be concerned about this language going to GOP members, as it sounds like a bias for regulation, which means you’re not one of their primary voters. (Same for “our priority must be the safety and well-being of everyone who flies,” which leaves out the economic benefits of flying to everyone on the ground.)
You’re also focussing on the exemption as the root cause to an event with an unfinished investigation. Unless you think your member’s staffers were genuinely unaware of this exemption, it doesn’t add anything to mention it.
Finally, form letters can be powerful. But they’re also dehumanising. You’re looking for the coordinator, as opposed to a sea of independent complaints coming in from your members. Better than nothing. But a quick paragraph in your own voice is more powerful
Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?
#559Earlier quoted context omitted.
But in all cases there was no subsequent news that inspection of all airbus planes proved most engines were bolted to the wing wrong... or that all the windshields were glued wrong. And this loose bolts thing shows up on a plane model where the "driving controls" were designed wrong. Note that no one is complaining about the other Boeing 737 models.
> Note that no one is complaining about the other Boeing 737 models. But why not? The 737NG has a known issue that killed someone in 2018 and the fix isn’t even planned to be in place until 2028. https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/faa-mandates-boeing-737ng...
Re: Is my plane a 737 MAX?
#560Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Note that no one is complaining about the other Boeing 737 models. But why not? The 737NG has a known issue that killed someone in 2018 and the fix isn’t even planned to be in place until 2028. https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/faa-mandates-boeing-737ng...
That's a great article. I didn't understand what is wrong or what the proposed measures are :)
> That includes a new spacer design for the engine inlet with increased fastener capability, changes to the fan cowl and fan cowl support beam, and the implementation of new exhaust nozzle structural stiffening elements.
> According to the National Safety Transportation Board’s (NTSB) executive summary of the incident, parts “of the left engine inlet and fan cowl separated from the airplane, and fragments from the inlet and fan cowl struck the left wing, the left-side fuselage, and the left horizontal stabilizer”. One of the fragments of the cowl struck the fuselage near a cabin window, with the window departing the 737-700 and resulting in rapid depressurization.