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The pro-Israel information war

jackpoulson.substack.com

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Re: The pro-Israel information war

#551

Post by lossolo »

underdeserver wrote: post #491
lossolo wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of the world is against Israel's occupation of Palestine, a stance that is reflected in numerous UN General Assembly votes. Holding a pro-Israel position in this context represents a very US centric view, which is not similarly echoed in the rest of the world.

No, the majority of the world is against Israel's occupation of the West Bank, and until 2005 when Israel left Gaza, its occupation of Gaza. The October 7th attack was carried out against civilians in their homes living on land that is internationally recognized as Israel by an overwhelming majority of countries.

> No, the majority of the world is against Israel's occupation of the West Bank, and until 2005 when Israel left Gaza, its occupation of Gaza.

I'm not sure what you are opposing. I wrote that majority of the world is against Israel's occupation. And it's not only West Bank, this is map showing all the lands occupied by Israel with timeline https://i.stack.imgur.com/0xM5P.jpg

> The October 7th attack was carried out against civilians in their homes living on land that is internationally recognized as Israel by an overwhelming majority of countries.

Pro Palestine doesn't mean pro Hamas or pro terrorist. Here is another general assembly vote, from 26th October where majority of the world voted differently than Israel, and in favor of Palestine:

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142847

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#552

Post by khazhoux »

EvgeniyZh wrote: post #450
abusada wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello there, a Palestinian from the west bank here speaking, let me tell you something, our resistance has nothing to do with Israel being a Jewish state, if my brother stole my house and killed my children i will fight him just the same, and you would too and everyone else (I assume). jewish, muslim, christian, vegan.. doesn't matter. Now Hamas does play on the string of religion to get to people, and so does Israel…

> and when we chant "From the river to the sea" we don't mean to kill anyone Don't you think it may be useful to use a different slogan from the people who mean and do that? > if we can be free and live together, but have dignity and human rights, so be it! But we can't. There won't be a one-state solution that satisfies everyone, and the earlier we understand it, the better. For the same reasons, the right of return…

> Don't you think it may be useful to use a different slogan from the people who mean and do that?

Reminds me of "Defund the police." Led to people having to constantly explain that they didn't actually mean that police should have zero funds and be abolished. But, except, a lot of people on Twitter countered that they did mean exactly that, and that all cops are bad and they're all racist. :facepalm:

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#553

Post by [deleted] »

A1kmm wrote: post #521
jdross wrote: post #7

Pro-Palestinian views outrank Pro-Israeli online by around 36 to 1 on TikTok and 8 to 1 on other online platforms. https://twitter.com/antgoldbloom/status/1721561226151612602 If anything the skew within the platforms is to prioritize pro-palestinian views https://twitter.com/committeeonccp/status/173279243496103143... It also seems like these platforms create (rather than support) anti-Israeli views: https://twitter.…

I think the fundamental assumption of the analysis that there are two mutually exclusive groups, 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Palestine' is flawed. It is possible to simultaneously support the interests of Palestinian and Israeli civilians (and support a peaceful Israel within the 1967 boundaries), while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties) and Hamas. I think it is cur…

[deleted]

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#554

Post by waffleiron »

ars wrote: post #292

Please keep in mind this was posted on the Eve of the Jewish Shabbath (in the US, and in the middle of the Shabbath in Israel), so the conversation here is missing a lot of voices.

Also keep in mind Gaza has been cut of from electricity and internet, many there have been killed. The conversation is missing a lot of voices

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#555

Post by xkekjrktllss »

toss1 wrote: post #515
xkekjrktllss wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This has zero to do with "western ruling class" This is about authoritarians starting and driving a global war on democracy. Russia => Iran => Qatar =>Hamas. Why do you think Hamas leaders and Iranian leaders met in Moscow in mid-October? Gaza is opening a 2nd front on the Ukranian war. Putin & Russian officials have repeatedly stated that they think it is their right to rule at least the entire Soviet and Iron Curta…

The Israeli government literally funds Hamas: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

This is because Netanyahu and Hamas both oppose a peaceful resolution.

Hamas =/= Palestinian people. However, if your family's home is taken from you by Israel and your family members are killed by Israeli forces, you will vote for anyone most capable of fighting back, and Israel's funding means Hamas is most capable.

>Just be sure you enjoy it when you no longer have a vote that counts

I am from the US. My vote is useless. No party or candidate representing my interests can run, much less win.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#556

Post by kromem »

Scubabear68 wrote: post #429
kromem wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that is definitely true and an important distinction, I will say that unfortunately all too often as discussions on the topic deepen there's a troubling correlation between the most vocal voices engaged in criticizing Israel and legit antisemitism views creeping in. Which isn't a one sided phenomenon. The reverse is true as well, where often the most vocal voices rationalizing Israel's actions and behavior arou…

I get your point, but at the same time dragging anti-semetism into the argument weakens the voices of those who really are not anti-Semitic at all, but genuinely question the Israeli government response to the Hamas attacks. Which is, I suspect, the point - to weaken those viewpoints. And to address others in this thread around US actions around the world, I am critical of the U.S. war on Afghanistan and the second I…

You suspect that my point is to weaken the voices of those who aren't anti-Semetic but question the actions of Israel?

And not that perhaps my point is to highlight the opposite effect, by which the continued rhetoric of anti-Zionism as distinct from anti-Semetism weakens the voices of those experiencing a documented rise in genuine anti-Semitism by dismissing it as mislabeling?

Polarization around the human tendency for tribalism and side picking has led to increases in both anti-Muslim and antisemitism - people have been stabbed, had homes invaded, attacked, etc because of both those identities as rhetoric has become increasingly inflamed.

As I said - the times that I tend to see good faith discussion on this topic typically correlate with the voices that recognize the humanity of the civilians on both sides of the conflict, with the voices unilaterally humanizing one side while dismissing the suffering of the other side far more often tending to extend significantly greater underlying biases.

Denying the rise of antisemitism and trying to label it all as simply Zionism upset it isn't in favor has its own impact of conversation weakening I'd encourage you to consider.

To me, it seems pretty easy to both recognize that there's been a marked increase in antisemitism and anti-Muslim rhetoric tied to this topic without impacting my ability to both recognize and condemn actions of people in power in this conflict when targeting civilians or not taking internationally recognized measures to prevent civilian harm.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#557

Post by skitout »

mastrsplyntr wrote: post #395

Why is America so fixated on Israel? Groups like AIPAC and the Israeli lobby seem to be steering U.S. policies in ways that don't necessarily benefit the U.S., while potentially harming its interests. Here's what's at stake: This alliance seems to be turning about two billion people and dozens of muslim-majority nations against America, driving them towards alliances with countries like China. American taxpayer money…

There is little ethics in politics and geopolitics.

In US politics there are the Jews, the pro-Israel Lobby, and also part of the Evangelical Christian who strongly support Israel for religious reason (while sometime being a bit antisemitic). More generally American people strongly support Israel - even if some are criticizing decision made by Israel. Electorally all that is important.

Election aside, everybody have his own interest, but for many decade Israel had been a solid ally of the USA in the middle East - which is/was a key region. And the coming decades it is hard to see how it can change as both have interest to work with each other

Muslims that are unhappy with the current situation with Israel, were probably not huge fan of the USA and Israel in the first place... This did not prevent leaders of many Muslim countries to work closely with the USA and growingly more with Israel : national interest first. Of course the current event increase the pressure of the street over their leader to not work with Israel on the short term...

If USA were dropping big time a key ally in a key situation for this ally, this would send a very very bad signal to all allies. But we see that Biden is much more critical about Israel than USA used to be. While still being an ally.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#558

Post by The_Colonel »

A1kmm wrote: post #521
jdross wrote: post #7

Pro-Palestinian views outrank Pro-Israeli online by around 36 to 1 on TikTok and 8 to 1 on other online platforms. https://twitter.com/antgoldbloom/status/1721561226151612602 If anything the skew within the platforms is to prioritize pro-palestinian views https://twitter.com/committeeonccp/status/173279243496103143... It also seems like these platforms create (rather than support) anti-Israeli views: https://twitter.…

I think the fundamental assumption of the analysis that there are two mutually exclusive groups, 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Palestine' is flawed. It is possible to simultaneously support the interests of Palestinian and Israeli civilians (and support a peaceful Israel within the 1967 boundaries), while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties) and Hamas. I think it is cur…

I think that forcing this dichotomy is part of the deliberate pro-Israel media strategy - if you despise Hamas inhumane acts, then of course you need to be pro-Israel. They want you to focus on Hamas to steer away your attention from what Israel has been doing. (this is also one of the reasons why Hamas has historically been an asset for the Israeli right)

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#559

Post by oytis »

mardifoufs wrote: post #318
ristlane wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Which other nation is allowed to literally colonize land than even itself doesn't consider to be part of their country? What other nation can get away with military enforcement of said colonies? If anything, Israel is given more slack in the west than any other nation. More civilians died in Gaza than in Ukraine yet clearly, only one nation has been condemned officially by western states and that's not Israel

I don't know a single country - including Israel's closest allies - that says that occupation of West Bank is acceptable.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#560

Post by wazoox »

proc0 wrote: post #180
holmesworcester wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another possible explanation for this skew is that TikTok and IG are primarily video platforms. The videos of destruction and death in Gaza are far more horrific than corresponding videos in Israel, because the scale of what Israel is doing to Gaza is so much greater than what Gaza has done to Israel. Another way of saying it is, it makes sense that someone who spends hours on apps optimized for empathy-based addicti…

> The videos of destruction and death in Gaza are far more horrific than corresponding videos in Israel Maybe you haven't seen enough of what happened in 10/7 then. I would rather get hit by a bomb then tortured to death in the most horrific way possible.

Even when dug out at some point, following a long and painful agony people crushed under collapsed buildings almost always die. Particularly in Gaza where medical supplies are now non-existent.

Lots of innocents are dying; there is IMO absolutely no amount of reasoning that can justify it, under any circumstances. It's just wrong. It must stop, period.

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