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Henry Kissinger Has Died

nytimes.com

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Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#551

Post by workingdog »

mattnewton wrote: post #287
NaOH wrote: post #43

Probably as good a time as any to re-link the Mother Jones piece "Daniel Ellsberg on the Limits of Knowledge": https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/02/daniel-ellsbe... Linked on HN numerous times but largely only discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3296691

Ellsberg had access to the information Kissinger had and still thought the Vietnam war was unjust and unwinnable. It’s hard to imagine what Kissinger knew that would drastically change my perception on him.

The Vietnam war was unjust and unwinnable.

JRK got us into it, and Nixon got us out of it while navigating the complexities of China, the cold war, and a potential WW III if we appeared too weak.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#552

Post by workingdog »

Solstinox wrote: post #539
skrebbel wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rest of the west is allied with the US because they’re the least evil guys, not because they’re the good guys. I’m Dutch and knowing that the US has a constant threat of extreme violence against us written into their law scares the crap out of me. We’re supposed to be happy jolly NATO allies but srsly that shit is not cool.

You are not an ally, you are a de facto vassal. Compared to other vassals in history you don't have to send much in the way of tribute. Frankly, you have a pretty good deal. We provide your protection, you can do your Dutch things, and we don't bother you too much other than the occasional McDonalds garrison.

[flagged]

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#553

Post by MichaelZuo »

arp242 wrote: post #345
MichaelZuo wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a good reminder that public judgement isn't worth much for any personality who had access to lots of bonafide top secret information. A lot of sensitive diplomatic and military records from even the 60s are yet to be declassified, so the final verdict of future historians will likely rest on much different information then we can access today.

That's all very fine but worthless for people voting today.

How is this relevant? The voter's estimation of worth barely influence Kissinger types at all.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#555

Post by Joeboy »

whycome wrote: post #429
jhbadger wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very common. Basically all elderly people of note have obituaries written by reporters on staff so that an article can be gotten out quickly if the subject dies suddenly. Not uncommonly, the targets of the obituary are of a higher class and have better medical treatment and so live beyond their obituary writer.

Common? Give us another example

See here for some recent obits written by Ronald Bergen, who died in 2020:

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/ronaldbergan

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#556

Post by MichaelZuo »

sp0rk wrote: post #303
MichaelZuo wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a good reminder that public judgement isn't worth much for any personality who had access to lots of bonafide top secret information. A lot of sensitive diplomatic and military records from even the 60s are yet to be declassified, so the final verdict of future historians will likely rest on much different information then we can access today.

Can you give any examples of somebody that was unjustly vilified by the public until top secret information was released that exonerated them?

For example, Harry Truman, and his sacking of MacArthur. Now that there's been more info released regarding Army biowarfare programs in the late 40s/early 50s, recruitment of the Japanese specialists immediately after WW2, etc...

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#557

Post by acdha »

warbaker wrote: post #486
warbaker wrote: post #393

Kissinger gets a lot of flak for the bombings in Cambodia and Vietnam, but... I mean, it was awful when the Khmer Rouge took over Cambodia, and it was also awful when the Viet Cong took over Vietnam. The Khmer Rouge murdered 25% of the country! 2 million people!! https://sfi.usc.edu/collections/cambodian-genocide The Viet Cong were also horrible (excepting, of course, their intervention in Cambodia against the Khmer…

Can't say I'm surprised that this is my most downvoted post! HN, classy as ever.

Binary thinking will do that - you’re making a very sweeping claim without acknowledging that not everything fits cleanly into it. Even if we accept for the sake of argument that, say, the North Vietnamese government was terror on earth justifying any possible action against it, Allende wasn’t a Communist and nor were East Timor, Bangladesh, Cambodia, etc. so this is effectively arguing that you let someone be shot because you thought they might grow up to be a murderer.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#558

Post by da_chicken »

xkekjrktllss wrote: post #367
jhbadger wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very common. Basically all elderly people of note have obituaries written by reporters on staff so that an article can be gotten out quickly if the subject dies suddenly. Not uncommonly, the targets of the obituary are of a higher class and have better medical treatment and so live beyond their obituary writer.

The reasons have much more to do with much better diets, getting better sleep, not working stressful and physically demanding and dangerous jobs, etc.

Turns out that being able to afford a better life leads to a longer life.

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#559

Post by Reubachi »

csomar wrote: post #125

Kissinger is way over hyped. What I find more interesting is the total deflection of the blame of everything that happened to his person. I believe that Kissinger is talented but far from being the person who orchestrated a world order. He was a tool. A very nice and charismatic persona who took the fall when events went south. He was paid for it and protected up until his death.

"very nice and charismatic persona"

Not sure I've ever heard anyone refer to Henry Kissinger as "a very nice and charismatic person".

Even if he was just "the face" of US Policy at the time, and not an actual implementer, he was instrumental in furthering the suffereing of millions around the world through meddling in foreign governments/civil unrest.

If I make $10 dollars off of your suffering in perpetuity, and let it continue as the public face of your suffering, am I less evil than the actual person implementing your suffering?

Re: Henry Kissinger Has Died

#560

Post by newZWhoDis »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #525
FergusArgyll wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a little known law in the USA which states the following; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." It's not always followed but it does remain fairly important in the mind of Ame…

The first amendment prevents censorship, by the US government , of the press or individual speech. It doesn't prevent an individual or legal person from suing over something written or said in public about them. What would stop the Atlantic from "getting sued into oblivion" is that the person that the article was about (Nixon) was dead when it was written, and the dead can't be defamed.

The 1st amendment only exists because it’s an ideal which many Americans value.

It doesn’t matter if “well it’s not technically illegal because it’s not the government”, people don’t like censorship either way.

If your only defense of [corp/group] is that “well technically their suppression isn’t against the law” you’re probably on the wrong side.

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