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Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

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Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#551

Post by hamburglar »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #530
irjustin wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realize one possible misconception is severance vs "gardening leave" [0]. They look really similar, but legally entirely different. In "gardening leave" you're still an employee and on payroll until the last day. Whereas severance you're not an employee and typically paid lump-sum (but doesn't matter for this discussion). So in this specific situation, yes, that would be wages and would be paid out first before cre…

That's an unlikely misconception, since paid noncompete periods are not something that most people have ever even heard of.

Paid noncompete periods are far from the only reason for gardening leave.

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#552

Post by kortilla »

idiotsecant wrote: post #469
slt2021 wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not at the mercy of my employer or capitalist class for that matter. And I will be the first one to automate my job and reap the benefits of automation myself. This is the way of life - if you cannot adapt - those more flexible, more adaptable, smarter, younger, hungrier - will eat your lunch. There is no way any tech union can enforce monopoly, because there will always be new entrants ( ew grads) and offshore…

I hate to break it to you but if your job is automatable it won't be you reaping the benefits, it will be the people who have the most capital to deploy automating. That ain't you buddy, sorry. Your world view is basically peak HN techbro-iterianisim. I hope you never get the opportunity to experience exactly how wrong you are.

You sure make a lot of declarations about who is right and wrong and the poster is literally talking about their job. Is it possible you want unions in software so badly that you’re blind to successful models that work without them?

Physicians and Lawyers have been around forever and they don’t unionize.

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#553

Post by eru »

vidarh wrote: post #548
eru wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different income levels between countries already suffice to explain most of the variation we see in things like actual provided worker safety etc. History of union activism is an explanatory variable that doesn't add much to the mix, and if anything is rather contradictory and noisy in the end.

Given we can look back at history and see direct causal links between industrial action and subsequent improvements, there is no way to take this seriously. I have no doubt you're right that it correlates neatly with different income levels, but I find it comical that you think that addresses the issue. I also note that you claimed working hours as a normal good whose demand would rise with income but ignored the poi…

> I also note that you claimed working hours as a normal good whose demand would rise with income [...]

No, leisure is the normal good. And so is safe food and clean air etc.

> Given we can look back at history and see direct causal links [...]

How do 'see' direct causal links? Just because people work to achieve X, and then X happens, is not a direct causal link. Eg praying for winter to be over, doesn't mean that there is a direct causal link with spring coming eventually. And fans cheering for their sports team to win, don't have much of an influence on whether their team actually wins.

Or to give an example from history: the assassination of Franz Ferdinand is often seen as the event that triggered the Great War; but few people assign it much importance as an underlying cause.

> I have no doubt you're right that it correlates neatly with different income levels, but I find it comical that you think that addresses the issue.

If income levels explain all the variation between countries, and levels of union activism are just noise, I am not sure why you need to appeal to union activism as a cause?

It's like looking at the correlation between taking antibiotics and recovery from infection, but then adding fervent prayer as a causal explanation for some reason.

The tide eventually receded from King Canute, but that's not because of anything he did.

EDIT: I mostly agree with your edit. A parasite should be careful not to kill the host.

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#554

Post by kortilla »

vidarh wrote: post #548
eru wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different income levels between countries already suffice to explain most of the variation we see in things like actual provided worker safety etc. History of union activism is an explanatory variable that doesn't add much to the mix, and if anything is rather contradictory and noisy in the end.

Given we can look back at history and see direct causal links between industrial action and subsequent improvements, there is no way to take this seriously. I have no doubt you're right that it correlates neatly with different income levels, but I find it comical that you think that addresses the issue. I also note that you claimed working hours as a normal good whose demand would rise with income but ignored the poi…

> but ignored the point that the demand far preceded the economic ability to bargain for it with money, and that the demand was not constrained by lack of money

You don’t know what demand means in an economic context here. Ops point is that as wages increase, people aren’t going to accept 70 hour workweeks if they can get by on 40.

> Given we can look back at history and see direct causal links between industrial action and subsequent improvements, there is no way to take this seriously.

Feel free to point them out and show how unions were required in every country to get the same thing. Things happening around the same time does not imply causation.

Union members were likely emboldened as pay increased because they could ride out strikes. At the same time, people could just get by on fewer shifts because pay increased. This creates downward pressure on required weekly hours (because many people to value their time), regardless of the union activities.

“The 8 hour work day was paid for in blood” is a great signal that you’re already very pro union (it’s literally union propaganda), so I don’t expect your view to shift much here. But consider that many professions flourished without unions (tech, law, banks, engineering, etc).

They are by no means requisite for improvements.

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#555

Post by vidarh »

eru wrote: post #553
vidarh wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given we can look back at history and see direct causal links between industrial action and subsequent improvements, there is no way to take this seriously. I have no doubt you're right that it correlates neatly with different income levels, but I find it comical that you think that addresses the issue. I also note that you claimed working hours as a normal good whose demand would rise with income but ignored the poi…

> I also note that you claimed working hours as a normal good whose demand would rise with income [...] No, leisure is the normal good. And so is safe food and clean air etc. > Given we can look back at history and see direct causal links [...] How do 'see' direct causal links? Just because people work to achieve X, and then X happens, is not a direct causal link. Eg praying for winter to be over, doesn't mean that t…

> No, leisure is the normal good. And so is safe food and clean air etc.

You got what I meant unless you're being obtuse. The point remains that the demand preceded the financial ability to bargain for it. It was independent of income.

> How do 'see' direct causal links?

By looking at when employers offered concessions in order to end strikes etc. Now you are being obtuse. Go back and look at newspaper archives from major labour conflicts and the concessions negotiated with the union actions as the direct and immediate reason cited by employers themselves, even at times after having spent fortunes on people like Pinkerton to try to intimidate and harm workers to get them back to work first.

> If income levels explain all the variation between countries, and levels of union activism are just noise, I am not sure why you need to appeal to union activism as a cause?

I've seen no evidence that they explain all the variation. I've agreed they likely correlate with much of it. Now consider that income-differences do not just magically spring into existence either, and while there are certainly multiple factors again we have extensive examples of direct cause and effect in terms of negotiation and subsequent agreements.

> A parasite should be careful not to kill the host.

When you describe workers as parasites, that is utterly vile and explains a lot. And so we are done here.

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#556

Post by mobilefriendly »

dudul wrote: post #275
robocat wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably to fix that would need legislation specific to start-ups. I would hope most employees know that is a significant risk of working at a startup?! But yes, harsh, regardless of how predictable.

A better fix would be for people to see their health insurance divorced from their employer. That would actually greatly benefit startups and be one step back from corporate serfdom.

U.S. tax law needs to change for this to happen. Individual health care should be totally tax deductible (the way it is for businesses) or should not be tax deductible at all for business (a small step in this direction by the Obama Administration was vilified as a "Cadillac Tax"

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#557

Post by thaumasiotes »

hamburglar wrote: post #551
thaumasiotes wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an unlikely misconception, since paid noncompete periods are not something that most people have ever even heard of.

Paid noncompete periods are far from the only reason for gardening leave.

What are some examples that somebody might have heard of?

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#558

Post by suoduandao2 »

webdood90 wrote: post #276
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What good is buying one extra month for a doomed company? You don't know it's doomed. Plenty of companies have turned around while running on fumes. This is fundamental to start-ups. > month is more valuable to individual employees who can use it to look for new jobs Everyone who lost their jobs at Convoy is eligible for unemployment. The same unemployment most workers get when they're fired. Perhaps the discussion…

> Perhaps the discussion should be around improving this benefit for everyone? Red herring You're participating in mental gymnastics to validate what is essentially poor leadership. Why?

You’re calling this poor leadership, can you share a time you were in a similar situation and did something different or are you armchair quarterbacking?

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#559

Post by paulddraper »

asimovfan wrote: post #527
paulddraper wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they run out of money, for sure. Do you want to foot the bill?

Well with proper labor laws in place, that bill could be secured in expense of the shareholders. A wage labourer should be able to expect to know if they will be able to feed their families the next month.

> in expense of the shareholders.

Lol, lose more money than invested.

> A wage labourer should be able to expect to know if they will be able to feed their families the next month.

A wage laborer should make $1,000,000 per year.

Re: Trucking startup Convoy closes operations with no buyer

#560

Post by paulddraper »

shiroiuma wrote: post #545
paulddraper wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> paid comp to the execs for a full year IDK if Shone did things the most intelligent way, but the general story is not uncommon. Shareholders/creditors have a mess if the CEO and CFO walk out the door for their new job; it is financially beneficial for them to liquidate assets and shut the door. Shareholders/creditors don't have a mess when the engineer and a product manager walk out the door to their new job. That'…

Maybe they need something in bankruptcy law that requires the executives to stick around, at low pay, to do their jobs and unwind the company. After all, they're the ones who made it fail. Why should they be allowed to walk away? If a regular individual declares bankruptcy and then doesn't bother doing any of the required paperwork and legal stuff, saying the court needs to pay them top dollar for their time, things…

> Why should they be allowed to walk away?

Because we decided ages ago that compelled labor is a bad idea.

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