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Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

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Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#551

Post by PawgerZ »

MSFT_Edging wrote: post #363
anonym29 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech-literate folks really should make a concerted effort to move to our own darknet, something like freenet or I2P, to recreate the internet before the advent of mass adoption of smartphones by the public. Forums, IRC, vent/TS, webrings, XHTML 1.0. No WebGL. No Canvas. No WebAssembly. No damn WEI. Normies can f&$% off and enjoy the data-mined, DRM'd, ad-infested, CCP-propagandized, upload-your-photo-ID-to-post-here,…

While I like this idea, starting from the foot of "CCP-propagandized" based on the tiktok service hosted by Oracle in the US is an amazing way to start off on a Nazi infested foot. Anti-communism and fascism are historically in lock-step. No one is going to use the services if you basically create web4 stormfront.

There was nothing in his comment that alluded to anti-communism sentiment. In my opinion, the parent comment was categorically anti-fascist. Current day CCP conforms to the definition of fascism far more than the definition of communism.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on how they were being anti-communist or fascist in your eyes.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#552

Post by nvm0n1 »

larata_media wrote: post #40
c0l0 wrote: post #5

I feel like I have to repeat this, since so much is at stake here, where it is about the preservation of the web as we know it today, at the peril of having it turned into yet another walled garden: The only way around the dystopia this will lead to is to constantly and relentlessly shame and even harass all those involved in helping create it. The scolding in the issue tracker of that wretched "project" shall flow l…

I agree with your overall ideal of free access to information but I disagree that harassment is a necessary or even effective option to push against this. I think the harassment puts us in a category of ineffective, bitter malcontents and that’s not what we are. We are capable of going to elsewhere to free and open access to information, and we would be better off spending our energy on positively influencing others…

> a category of ineffective, bitter malcontents and that’s not what we are

There are enough top voted people demanding harassment in this and other threads to say that well, maybe that's what HN is, actually.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#553

Post by teddyh »

userbinator wrote: post #231
c0l0 wrote: post #5

I feel like I have to repeat this, since so much is at stake here, where it is about the preservation of the web as we know it today, at the peril of having it turned into yet another walled garden: The only way around the dystopia this will lead to is to constantly and relentlessly shame and even harass all those involved in helping create it. The scolding in the issue tracker of that wretched "project" shall flow l…

Indeed. Negotiations have already turned out to be completely ineffective. The next step is war. Cory Doctorow came up with the phrase "The War on General-Purpose Computing", which describes the situation perfectly.

Even before that, there was “The Digital Imprimatur”: https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/digital-imprimatur/>

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#554

Post by nfw2 »

rdevsrex wrote: post #513

I wish Google would solve real developer pain points like having secure client side storage. That would be useful to developers. But heaven forbid they take a break for a moment from trying to squeeze every ounce of profit out of their users.

In order to have secure client-side storage, it seems like you would need to be able to verify that the client-side application that is accessing it is unmodified -- which is what WEI would allow for.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#555

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

userbinator wrote: post #231
c0l0 wrote: post #5

I feel like I have to repeat this, since so much is at stake here, where it is about the preservation of the web as we know it today, at the peril of having it turned into yet another walled garden: The only way around the dystopia this will lead to is to constantly and relentlessly shame and even harass all those involved in helping create it. The scolding in the issue tracker of that wretched "project" shall flow l…

Indeed. Negotiations have already turned out to be completely ineffective. The next step is war. Cory Doctorow came up with the phrase "The War on General-Purpose Computing", which describes the situation perfectly.

He came up with it more than 9 years ago, during which time no such war has been generally apparent, and if anything, the conditions for general purpose computing have improved.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#557

Post by sir_brickalot »

mordae wrote: post #503
anshumankmr wrote: post #160

As someone who is a somewhat new to web technologies, can someone really explain why this is bad? I saw the techical discussions in the PRs made to the WEI repo but it was all super technical that I was not able to understand the arguments made for and against it.

To put it simple, it makes it possible for service provider to reject providing service to clients not running corporate-owned white-listed clients. Thus making it virtually impossible to create independent clients for such services. It will be swiftly adopted by well meaning but clueless bank and government clerks who will accidentally use to lock all open hardware, open operating system, open browser users out and…

Isn't this already the reality in the mobile space?

I own a rooted Samsung device and have to jump through 100 hoops to be able to use my banking app or Netflix or some rando game (which I don't actually play). SafetyNet broken, hardware fuse blown, Magisk Hide + some other havks just to still be able to do online banking.

I just want to be able to ssh into my own device or install a real ad blocker, like Adaway without losing access to real world applications.

This is all very depressing.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#558

Post by javajosh »

mindslight wrote: post #525
javajosh wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first paragraph, about ad blockers, is very strong, thank you. I may even be convinced. I already want a world where communication only happens by consent, and framing this change as fundamentally coercive makes sense. One may object on the basis of wanting the consumer to consume "the whole thing", however I think that's easy to dismiss. I think I'm convinced. Your second paragraph, about chain of trust, gets a…

I haven't read the proposal in depth. But skimming, this stands out: > With the web environment integrity API, websites will be able to request a token that attests key facts about the environment their client code is running in. For example, this API will show that a user is operating a web client on a secure Android device. Tampering with the attestation will be prevented by signing the tokens cryptographically. I…

>there would be literally no point to this specification as it could always be faked.

I disagree. There is a point to making something more difficult but not impossible: you alter behavior at statistically significant scale in practice AND you get to point to the alternative as a reason why the change isn't "coercive". In practice, 99% of users won't know to download an altered Chrome - they have a shaky understanding of "browser" and "os" as it is. In fact, I can imagine Googlers rationalizing this as a kind of shibboleth that keeps hacker culture alive.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#559

Post by teddyh »

lxgr wrote: post #504
pornel wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we have this crappy paradox that Mozilla is held to an impossibly high standard. People want to burn them to the ground for daring to use Google Analytics, or the Pocket acquisition, and keep using a 100% Google browser, with preferential integration with all of Google's services/protocols/APIs.

I think that's a false dichotomy. It's possible to criticize Mozilla (ideally in good faith) for both the way in which they develop Firefox and their focus/mission in general, while at the same time using Firefox, since to me it looks like the best alternative we've got. Not every Mozilla critic is a Chrome user; I'd even expect that the most vocal critics are Firefox fans and users.

In theory, yes, but that’s what every thread about switching to Firefox gets: Lots of flames about Mozilla. But when the only sensible alternative is staying with Google, why would these people make these arguments as replies to suggestions to switch to Firefox? It is only reasonable to conclude that it’s not Firefox fans making these arguments, in those threads.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#560

Post by strix_varius »

Pannoniae wrote: post #225

This proposal is just so throughly user-hostile that it's impossible to criticise it based on technical grounds. It's not a bad proposal, it's a dangerous, evil and malicious one, so criticising it in details is futile. The whole thing in itself is evil, and it needs to be thrown out. Quietly protesting won't work this time, the goal is to kick up a huge fuss which gets the attention of governments, regulatory bodies…

Agreed - if anyone else is curious to see Google's "side" (motivations, technical or otherwise), here's the explainer:

https://github.com/RupertBenWiser/Web-Environment-Integrity/...

It's nakedly user-hostile. A blatant attempt to invert the "user agent" relationship such that the agent works for the advertiser/corporation/government to spy on the human behind the screen. The way the intro paragraph tries to disguise this as something users need or want is frankly disgusting:

> Users often depend on websites trusting the client environment they run in. This trust may assume that the client environment is honest about certain aspects of itself, keeps user data and intellectual property secure, and is transparent about whether or not a human is using it. This trust is the backbone of the open internet, critical for the safety of user data and for the sustainability of the website’s business.

Ugh. Here's a fixed, honest version:

Corporations like Google often depend on advertisers knowing as much as possible about their users. Their revenue may depend on fingerprinting the client environment, tracking their behavior and history, and attesting that a human with sufficient disposable income is behind the keyboard. This personal data mining is the backbone of Google's business model, critical for their continued dominance of the web and for the sustainability of their enormous margins.

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