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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#551

Post by mwcampbell »

epistasis wrote: post #530
pdimitar wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but what can be done then to avoid this "poor appearance" exactly? The black speaker pulled out. It's their decision to make. What can be done?

Continue on with the conference, learn from the current situation, and try again in the future. That's why I'm encouraged that this conversation is happening, because it's the path to the better future. The only really wrong response to this would be to shut down, close one's mind, and decide that the problem is the controversy itself, rather than the greater social situation of which this conference is just one smal…

But wouldn't the best way to appeal to a wider audience be to avoid the controversy and focus on the technical? We know how off-putting the drama can be, e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36104163

Re: Why I Left Rust

#553

Post by coldtea »

>A couple team members had strong opinions/discomfort against JeanHeyd being selected as a keynote speaker, as best as I understand it, because of the content of JeanHeyd's blog post on reflection in Rust

Any project with such people in it would succeed despite of them, not because of them. It's sad to see a project burdened by egos and bureaucracy.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#554

Post by djbusby »

bluejekyll wrote: post #486
fatneckbeard wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I worry about this. There was no "C leadership", it was simple enough that dozens of people created their own compilers within a few years of C existing. this was back before the internet. they had companies sprouting up like Borland just making C compilers for personal home computers. C just ... spread. All these kids learning Arduino in school, they are learning C. There basically is no other usable compiler t…

Wouldn’t you consider the C standards committee as the leadership of C?

The C committee started after the various compiler implementations. Rust seems to have had the committee before the compiler.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#555

Post by ninepoints »

preordained wrote: post #538
ninepoints wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering Elon an "effective leader" is certainly a take.

The media hates him, and I can understand how that can be hard to separate out from one's view of reality; but, I think whether Elon has success despite actually being terrible as some might think, or is actually really good at what he does, he's been very successful on the whole if you can be the slightest bit objective. So, given that, you would have to claim to know, really know, that it's all despite him to say h…

Correlation != causation. It's clear that his success is in spite of himself, not because of it. I don't know anyone in my professional circle that would work under him, what with having a reputation for impulse firing people that disagree with you and other clear signs of egomania.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#556

Post by cmcaleer »

Ansoni-San wrote: post #498
bradleyjg wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart broke. I wept because of the cruelty. I wouldn’t want to work with someone that wrote this. I’m not sure which is worse—if it’s hyperbole or it isn’t.

Good to know you wouldn’t want to work with anyone autistic or on the spectrum. Which is the case here. The thing is that the people on here taking about “being adults” are the least tolerant or understanding that people experience things and express things differently.

It's bizarre that you're scolding this person for being intolerant while implying such language is to be expected of "anyone autistic or on the spectrum". To me, that is offensive stereotyping.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#557

Post by b112 »

pdimitar wrote: post #425
b112 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, Rust committee. Let's grow up here, shall we Rust may, or may not, be the next best thing. However, the zealotry expressed by some rust pundits, is very off putting to me. One thing I have learned, is that zealotry is where moral compromise enters, it is where "for their own good" and "the ends justify the means" starts, followed by concepts such as "we need to force people to understand". Some rust pundits…

You are generalizing. This is a very isolated incident, and one that I as a Rust dev am baffled about. It seems poorly handled by all sides involved. Have in mind that 99.99% of Rust devs out there chose it on technical merits and couldn't care less about their internal infighting even if we were paid to care.

You are generalizing

No, my statements about zealots in the rust community, are not generalizations. Rust has more zealots, than every other language combined.

Note, advocates are not the same as zealots.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#558

Post by [deleted] »

lamontcg wrote: post #541

How come we can't have a technical discussion about reflection in a language without it degenerating into this kind of a shitshow? And all the people who immediately started accusing rust of being "woke" are equally at fault here--don't think for a moment that I'm on your side. This whole thread is a disaster. How did we get here in the first place that people seem to have religious beliefs over a language feature an…

[deleted]

Re: Why I Left Rust

#559

Post by riskable »

phpisthebest wrote: post #423
junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

From the very beginning Rust was a political movement first, and a programming lang second. People seemed to have forgotten some of the early events from years ago when Rust was less popular. >>The Rust project needs to stamp this out before it begins to fester It has been there since the formation of the Lang, it is built into the DNA of the community. people that want technical merits to shine are the ones trying t…

No, no. Groups that have endless infighting/debates are the ones that evolve, stick around, and gain support. It's the groups that are cock-sure about everything with everyone falling in line behind the leadership that end up stagnating and ultimately end up being replaced with something better (often with bitter or explosive endings).

In the world of technology, fundamental tech like programming languages can persist seemingly forever but the truth is that there's great big winners and a whole lot of losers. We also don't like to compare seemingly-unrelated languages to each other because of their fundamental differences in how they're meant to be used but the truth is that a lot more people know and learn Python than will ever learn C or C++ (or Rust).

It's because C and C++ never really evolved into better languages. They never got rid of the bad ideas (e.g. goto) and just kept piling on new stuff, leaving new learners of the language just that much more to have to learn.

Languages like Rust and Python actually remove old, bad syntaxes/ideas and implement checks and helpful compiler messages regarding bad patterns. IMHO, this makes them vastly more likely to be around 25, 50, or even 100 years from now than languages (or OSes) that never remove technological debt.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#560

Post by sidlls »

pitaj wrote: post #492
sidlls wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Rust community (in aggregate; I'd hope I wouldn't need to state the obvious that it doesn't apply to all individuals, but...Rust community) fosters this sort of melodrama. There is a core of extremely zealous "Rust wins all the things" types who don't stop at advocating for a language on its technical merits: they have to belittle and berate users of other languages because their choice (or not: employment is wha…

> they have to belittle and berate users of other languages because their choice (or not: employment is what it is) isn't "correct." I keep hearing people claim this to be the case, but I've never seen this behavior as described in the wild - I only see the complaints about it. Yes, Rustaceans will evangelize and whatnot but I don't see the belittling or berating.

Just search "rust" in HN comments (or on Reddit, or pretty much anywhere you see someone asking questions likely to invoke discussion about language choice): you'll find plenty.
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