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Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

oceanservice.noaa.gov

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Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#551

Post by dabluecaboose »

johnwalkr wrote: post #549
dabluecaboose wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a convention, but hardly the convention. I used to work satellite navigation for NOAA. For the GOES sats we often used Intrack (Prograde/Retrograde), Crosstrack (Normal/Anti-normal), and Radial (Towards planet/away from). I don't think anyone really referred to any directions as "plus x" or "minus y"

There are different conventions, yes. Even for the shuttle I've seen +z point in the opposite direction in some documents. I work in systems engineering so I'm less exposed to terms used in operations and more in discussions about which part of the spacecraft things are located. Actually I work on rovers and it's a perennial debate whether to follow spacecraft convention (+z is down) or automotive convention (+z is u…

Yeah, operations is kind of where engineering's best practices go out the window for practicality haha.

We used to tilt the spacecraft when doing inclination burns so that we could get a little bit of intrack delta-v to even out our orbit. I always thought that was delightfully janky.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#552

Post by mwsfc »

antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

I would venture a guess the logic in some of these cases has a healthy does of practical wisdom baked in. On sailing vessels they are/were? chaotic, violent, noisy, and the crew perhaps wasn't the most experienced/educated(?) so keeping things simple with fixed names was perhaps the optimal safety solution in that environment. In the medical profession it's about the Hippocratic Oath (I am not a doctor), an operating room is more controlled, and everyone (is usually) well trained, so maybe in that environment it makes more sense to make a rule that the perspective should always be the patients? Thinking out loud here more than anything...

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#553

Post by el-salvador »

anthk wrote: post #426
qtzfz wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carro is not used in Spain at all.

It's used, but for the old ones with horses.

> It's used, but for the old ones with horses.

This was new for me.

The Spanish words carro, carreta, coche, carretilla, carrito all mean "something that has wheels on it", but the meaning keeps changing between car, horse drawn carriage, baby stroller, shopping cart, horse drawn cart or toy car between countries.

Fortunately it's easy to figure out from context and doesn't have possible misunderstandings as the Spanish word for straw.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#554

Post by iggldiggl »

batiudrami wrote: post #144
azepoi wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In french theatre has specific words for left and right. Côté cour et Côté jardin. Courtside and garden side. In geography left and right banks of a river are always in the direction of the flow

Rail uses “up” and “down main” where up is in the direction of the port or main terminus.

In Germany it's just direction "a" (kilometrage increasing) and direction "b" (kilometrage decreasing), though I think that usage isn't quite as prominent as Up/Down is in the UK and UK-influenced countries. In Romania AFAIK they're calling them direction "X" and direction "Y" instead.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#555

Post by simonh »

antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

Left and Right didn't have their modern meaning back then. In Old English riht meant straight, as in direct or not bent. It later assumed the meaning of correct as in right and wrong. Lyft meant weak. Their reference to handedness seems to have been incidental. It seems odd to us to talk about the 'straight' and 'weak' hand, but to them it made sense, but maybe not to talk about the 'straight' or 'weak' sides of a boat.

The concept of left and right hands was not very commonly used historically. It wasn't important to most people. During the English Civil War many recruits didn't know which hand or foot was left or right. During marching training instructors used to stick some hay in one boot and straw in the other for each recruit and call out "Hay, Straw, Hay, Straw".

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#556

Post by orthecreedence »

antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

As I was reading your comment I was thinking "huh, that's interesting." But then I remembered: surfers use left/right as well, for instance if a wave breaks right or left. They use the perspective of being in the ocean and looking back at the shore, as opposed to the shore looking out to the ocean. I remember asking that very question when I first started.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#557

Post by tcmart14 »

HPsquared wrote: post #254
antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

If you're inside a ship, it's often hard to say what way around you are: "left" and "right" have utility for the perspective of a person onboard. Port and starboard are the onboard equivalent of North/South/East/West when walking on land, especially if you're inside a building with no windows for external reference. This is unlike for a doctor, where it's obvious which side is which: you can see the patient.

Yup. Port and starboard, along with forward and aft are in reference to the center-line of the ship from the perspective of being aft and looking forward. Looking at a top down of the ship from where forward and the forecastle are up, it is left (port) and right (starboard).

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#558

Post by jrockway »

willyt wrote: post #282
jrockway wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"at the helm" seems like common usage to me. Maybe not in the top 100 idioms, but everyone knows what you mean. "tiller" is just the thing that controls the position of the rudder, which I think most people know about. (That said, nobody in aviation calls their rudder pedals the "tiller", so it might be a strictly nautical term.)

I think they sometimes call the thing that steers the nose wheel the tiller.

Yup, you're exactly right. I totally forgot about that. Thinking about it more, the rudder and tiller might be different things on ships too; I think a rudder you turn right to go right, and a tiller you turn left to go right, because of where the pivot point is?

It's a good thing I'm not at the helm ;)

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#559

Post by quartesixte »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #501
tomxor wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a particularly strange kind of overthinking, implicitly acknowledging the medical field is complex enough to consult a professional, and yet thinking something as common and (relatively) simple as interpreting left/right from patient descriptions hasn't already been considered. That's before even getting into the assumption of face to face orientation over a phone... is that in virtual terms, or in terms of ab…

As I said elsewhere, but I think it's worth repeating here - In an effort to avoid ambiguity, I always talk to my doctor in terms of "driver's side" and "passenger side" - thus adopting the maritime approach, but in more common terms.

And then you get a doctor from Japan!

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#560

Post by jdmichal »

OJFord wrote: post #536
runlaszlorun wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they have -1 now. Either that or my recent C excursions have me thinking in buffer overruns and index errors.

That would be two less than they should have? Unless you're commenting on its uselessness that they 'should' have zero despite one being normal?

Last I heard, there's an idea that it might help recolonize the gut with good flora after infections and such.
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