There's something off about LED bulbs • Hacker News Board

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#551

Post by mturmon » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 5:22 PM UTC

bondarchuk wrote: post #378

dahfizz wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the lightbulbs at home depot are inexpensive and they work fine. On the other hand, if you care about CRI, then you can also google for high-quality bulbs with a good CRI. I don't really see a problem here?

The problem is that previously the low-effort default option was great, and now the low-effort default option is bad and to get the equivalent of the previous great default you must now spend a bunch of extra time and money. "Caring about CRI" is basically just caring about the human visual system working correctly, that shouldn't be some weird niche. Besides, I don't control the lighting decisions of every place I g…

> previously the low-effort default option was great

You mean incandescents? I disagree, their efficiency is terrible ("space heaters that happen to glow"). And their lifespan was artificially limited.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#552

Post by Johnny555 » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 5:22 PM UTC

tomatotomato37 wrote: post #150

I hate how many of these things aren't limits of the technology but rather the result of cost optimization and general apathy towards the customer. We know how to mass-produce quality LEDs to the point entire TVs are made of the things. We know how to mass-produce rectifiers pretty much ever since diodes existed. We know how to cool mass-produced objects in compact spaces. But because we apparently can't have nice th…

rather the result of cost optimization and general apathy towards the customer

Apathy towards the consumer, or by the consumer? I don’t think I’m alone when I say that I just buy name brand LED bulbs (usually Phillips) in the color temperature of my choice and am completely satisfied with them. Color rendition is fine, no noticeable flicker, long lifetime. In the past 7 years I haven’t had any fail prematurely, though I’ve replaced some early to change color temperature.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#553

Post by xxpor » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 5:22 PM UTC

samtho wrote: post #356

wlesieutre wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. For the commercial DC lighting installations I've seen they were using power over ethernet. That's not necessarily the only way to deliver DC power but whatever you do it's going to be wired differently from 120 VAC.

I used to do electrical installs in commercial buildings and this was starting to catch on, mainly because the the practice of running ethernet (including the 8P8C aka RJ45 connector, patch paneling, etc) is already established. This always felt very roundabout and requires expensive networking equipment just to run lights which I do not personally like because it will just cause confusion.

You also get (the wiring for) remote control for free though, which is nice.

It seems like there would be a market for cheap as possible 10 mbit switches with 802.3bt/802.3af support though.

https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-802-3af-100Mbps-250Meter-Unma... is pretty cheap as is, I'm sure you could buy something in bulk for cheaper.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#554

Post by vxNsr » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 5:22 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #504

smolder wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the fixtures you're putting them in and consider if they're getting adequate cooling. If your average "long lasting" (they all claim this, but not at what temperature...) LED bulb is uncomfortably hot to touch, it's on the fast track to failure.

Mine are hanging in thin air over my bathroom mirror. The GE Reveal bulbs say they're good for bathrooms, but I suspect they don't like the humidity. I have four at a time in the fixture and six of them have died in the last two years. Once this box is empty I'll get something else.

If you still have the receipt you can file a warranty claim.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#555

Post by 01100011 » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 5:23 PM UTC

simongray wrote: post #258

This article and comment section is bizarre to me. It's like travelling back in time to the 2000s. We've only used LEDs in my country for, what, 15 years now? They are perfectly fine, no issues really, much cheaper than incandescent bulbs of course. We just buy the ones in IKEA and they haven't really failed us so far.

Seriously. I always thought I was very picky, both to flickering and color temp(3000k FTW). Sure, the >3000K bulbs look like death, and I've had issues with some bulbs flickering, but overall I'm really happy with the light output of my LEDs(color temp, CRI, stability, longevity). I'm in the US too. Not sure what folks are complaining about.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#556

Post by xxs » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 5:24 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #268

cogman10 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the frustrating thing about LEDs that IDK we can change. If there was a "DC" light socket in the house we could have LEDs outlasting owners, and for cheap. Nearly all the expense of LED bulbs is the power supply. Everything else is dirt cheap. A single home DC power supply with ~200W of output could light an entire house, flicker free. What's even more frustrating is I think we could fix it. A national regula…

Low voltage DC lighting is a thing that has existed for a very, very long time. That most houses don't have it is more cultural than anything else, in my opinion. That means it's totally fixable. You can install such a system in existing buildings right now, and it's not crazy expensive unless you want to run the wires inside the walls. If we could shift cultural expectations around this, adding a LV system in new co…

12V requires quite a lot of amps for enough light, so low DC is not optimal. Also LEDs are current driven devices, i.e. they will be sensitive to voltage changes (even with a current limiting resistor)

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#557

Post by amluto » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 5:25 PM UTC

int0x2e wrote: post #449

samtho wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LEDs must be powered by a constant-current supply, and distribution does not work well at constant-current, and is always constant voltage. So no matter what you will need some sort of switching power supply. I think the biggest problem is that many cheap power supplies cycle at lower frequencies that cause flickering which is perceptible subconsciously. A modern switchmode power supply might operate in the 50-500k…

The really cheap stuff actually doesn't even have a power supply! There's a breed of LEDs that takes straight AC and rectifies it using the LEDs themselves. By using a large number of tiny LEDs in series (typically in COB form), you can easily reach close to 110v or even 220v, and then you add a small current limiting controller in series that's dirt cheap compared to magnetics... These are super cheap, and appear br…

I have a serious problem with it for outdoor lighting and signage: it gives me a headache. Enough exposure will make me feel actively sick. The effect is not subtle.

Just don’t use these devices, please.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#558

Post by Joker_vD » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 5:25 PM UTC

Zak wrote: post #533

cogman10 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the frustrating thing about LEDs that IDK we can change. If there was a "DC" light socket in the house we could have LEDs outlasting owners, and for cheap. Nearly all the expense of LED bulbs is the power supply. Everything else is dirt cheap. A single home DC power supply with ~200W of output could light an entire house, flicker free. What's even more frustrating is I think we could fix it. A national regula…

Trying to cram all the infrastructure for an LED lamp into the shape of a light bulb is a bad idea, even if the input power is DC. Good designs for LED lighting have larger surface areas for heat dissipation and some physical/thermal separation between the LEDs and the power supply. A quality power supply does not produce flicker. As other comments have noted, dimming, or even predictable output requires some sort of…

> Trying to cram all the infrastructure for an LED lamp into the shape of a light bulb is a bad idea, even if the input power is DC.

Absolutely, the incandescent light bulbs have that shape for a reason: the screw is small because there is nothing to put in it and it doesn't heat, the bulb is large to dissipate all the light and heat it generates. And the LED light bulbs have exactly opposite problems: almost all of the heat is generated near the screw while the bulb itself generates almost none and the light-emitter doesn't even need the bulb that large around of it. Oh, and the casing around the screw is plastic so the thermal conductivity is horrible. Honestly, it's a profoundly terrible form-factor which we're now stuck with.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#559

Post by xxs » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 5:25 PM UTC

BizarroLand wrote: post #472

amluto wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this falls apart in the details. LEDs want constant current power supplies, and their owners frequently want them to dim. So you will still need a power supply. You can fudge it with resisters like in an LED strip, but you lose efficiency and dimming quality. That being said, I expect that power supplies with 48VDC input or so would be cheaper.

Maybe this could be a prosumer retrofit thing, where the AC voltage gets converted to DC in the junction box, and then DC is sent down to the fixture. Probably with some sort of current sensing system to make it compatible with dimmers. Pair that with DC A19 LED bulbs that have no internal power systems. Probably expensive to put together and to install, but if the goal was to have LEDs that last longer, that would d…

You will see need to current drive the LEDs, DC alone won't help.

Re: There's something off about LED bulbs

#560

Post by gmac » Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 5:26 PM UTC

derbOac wrote: post #58

eig wrote: post #6

The irony of this article is that the author is suffering from “too much choice”. LEDs have so much more capability than fluorescent and halogen bulbs that the burden has fallen on the consumer to sort out what dimmability, temperature, and lumens they need. It used to be that you only had one option so you didn’t have to think about it. Anyone who works in stage lighting or art knows that light is complicated. We sh…

I had a similar reaction to the article. I actually am opposed to bans on traditional incandescent bulbs but vastly prefer LEDs and have no desire to go back to them. Using LEDs was a shock to me initially mostly because, as you point out, with traditional household incandescents there wasn't a whole lot of options. So suddenly when I had to pay attention to color profiles and so forth more carefully, I wasn't expect…

On the other hand, the integrated bulb/fixtures in our house at least use separate driver units, and seem to be lasting much better than the average mains-voltage LED bulb (the oldest is 8 years old, used every day and still going strong, touch wood).