Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile • Hacker News Board

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#551

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 9:42 PM UTC

babypuncher wrote: post #350

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Any proposal must be viewed as follows. Do not pay overly much attention to the benefits that might be delivered were the law in question to be properly enforced, rather one needs to consider the harm done by the improper enforcement of this particular piece of legislation, whatever it might be." -Lyndon B. Johnson

I think a lot of people take this to mean "laws bad" when in reality I think LBJ was saying to be careful in how you craft your laws so you can prevent this kind of abuse.

Another way of putting this might be that it's reasonable to assume that most legislation/laws/procedures/policies are in fact created in good faith, and one can also assume that those advocating for them will do a good job covering the benefits. Where the work is needed, therefore, is in considering the unintended side-effects (of either enforcement or poor enforcement)

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#552

Post by PebblesRox » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 9:43 PM UTC

tsuujin wrote: post #492

martyvis wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is the another "modern" problem. I live in a semi-rural village, with 5km to the nearest town. If a teenage child was walking in between them (say they're bike was broken down) and I drive past: 1. I'd think if I stop and offer to pick them up, they might think I'm a potential pedophile/kidnapper. So I'm reticent. 2. They would think, as they likely have been trained, if they put out a hand and ask for a lif…

I loathe and despise how accurate this is. I’ve been preaching for years that “stranger danger” has done massive harm to society, far far more harm than the bad actors they’re trying to save us from would have done. Teaching children that all people are inherently bad and you should be afraid of anyone you don’t know sets the tone for how they are going to relate to other people for the rest of their lives. In my exp…

This is where I really appreciate how Kidpower teaches kids about safety with strangers. They focus on the positive while making sure kids are equipped to make wise decisions when a person or situation is not safe:

- a stranger is someone you don’t know

- most strangers are good

- the safety rules for strangers are to check first with your grown-ups before talking to, going with, or getting something from a stranger

- for kids who are old enough to be out and about on their own, checking first changes to thinking first, i.e. evaluating the situation

- if you are having an emergency where you can’t check first, you can get help from a stranger without needing to check first

https://www.kidpower.org/library/article/safety-on-the-way-t...

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#553

Post by minimal-o » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 9:44 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #67

Maximus9000 wrote: post #6

> Waco, Texas What? If this draconian policy is happening in Texas, the land of the free, can I assume it's even worse in the rest of North America? I hope Texans are up-in-arms about this government overreach.

You should generally assume that if something is happening in Texas that the other states are better, not worse. The government here is about as hyper hypocritical as it can get and no one actually cares about government overreach except when it has something vaguely to do with guns. In dark blue WA for example this isn't really a problem nor are there any laws on the books prohibiting it.

Hyper hypocritical is one way to put it I reckon. I'm more inclined to characterize it as an extreme, out-of-control right-wing sh1tsh0w at this point in the state's modern history. Born and raised Texan with very deep historical roots there ...

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#554

Post by chromanoid » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 9:45 PM UTC

noahtallen wrote: post #442

kickout wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, unfortunately, mimics my experiences. No idea when or how it happened, but it is noticeable

Well, part of the problem is our infrastructure choices over the past many decades. When you build suburbs that are very isolated from places you need to go and then need to drive to literally everything you do, nearly everyone starts viewing normal activities like walking to a grocery store as abnormal. As a result, kids can’t actually go anywhere until they turn 16 and get a car. :/ There are a lot of excellent vid…

I think this is a very important point. City planning/the space we live in is basically presetting the architecture of our daily life.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#555

Post by HPsquared » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 9:46 PM UTC

babypuncher wrote: post #350

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Any proposal must be viewed as follows. Do not pay overly much attention to the benefits that might be delivered were the law in question to be properly enforced, rather one needs to consider the harm done by the improper enforcement of this particular piece of legislation, whatever it might be." -Lyndon B. Johnson

I think a lot of people take this to mean "laws bad" when in reality I think LBJ was saying to be careful in how you craft your laws so you can prevent this kind of abuse.

Ironic, given the subject matter. It could do with a corollary: "when making a statement, consider the most simplistic and/or uncharitable interpretation possible".

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#556

Post by cbsmith » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 9:46 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #332

cbsmith wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and really, CPS does need to investigate. Yes, most often it's just a nosey neighbour, but every now and then those nosey neighbours are on to something, and while unpleasant for the families, missing that one case is the horror story they want to avoid.

> CPS does need to investigate. No, they don't. CPS does not need to investigate observations that, even if they are true, imply nothing. That's just sentencing everyone who deviates from orthodoxy to constant investigation. CPS should be investigating claims of something and should have clear standards for those claims instead of being aggressive as a defense. Or you can be a black man with a white stepdaughter, or…

> No, they don't. CPS does not need to investigate observations that, even if they are true, imply nothing. That's just sentencing everyone who deviates from orthodoxy to constant investigation.

I think you're taking a slippery slope argument well past the point of reason.

For starters, there'd be no reason for constant investigation: once you've completed an investigation, there is no reason to have another investigation in response to a similar report. At worst, every family would get a cursory investigation once. Admittedly, that's not great. Realistically, that would not happen either, as CPS does not have unlimited resources and would of course prioritize their time. So, the more people make spurious complaints, the less likely they'll get investigated. Similarly, it's pretty trivial to identify cases where someone is just spamming the system with complaints, and deprioritize it accordingly.

While it's not unusual for complainants to exaggerate, it's also not unusual for complainants to understate; you get a call about a family you've never heard of before, from someone who has never called in before, you just have no idea what you're going to find.

> Or you can be a black man with a white stepdaughter, or a white-passing daughter, and literally get authorities called every time you walk outside with her.

...and again, in that case, you're going to learn to ignore those calls pretty quickly.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#557

Post by cbsmith » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 9:47 PM UTC

gspencley wrote: post #290

cbsmith wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and really, CPS does need to investigate. Yes, most often it's just a nosey neighbour, but every now and then those nosey neighbours are on to something, and while unpleasant for the families, missing that one case is the horror story they want to avoid.

Investigate, absolutely. The cops need to do that as well. However, as someone else pointed out "Child services had the family agree to a safety plan" is not investigating. That's taking action and making a threat: "if you don't agree to this we'll take you to court and let a judge sort it out at your expense."

Yeah, as I've said elsewhere, I'm not sure that the family plan, as described, makes much sense given the situation. I get that it was a temporary measure while they were doing their investigation, but it still seems pretty impractical and disproportionate.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#558

Post by handoflixue » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 9:47 PM UTC

fluidcruft wrote: post #395

emodendroket wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that if CPS immediately and preemptively puts you under a punitive regime like this (what happens if grandparents don't live nearby or just aren't alive? Oh well, not their problem I guess) for merely being reported, then it is a highly effective vehicle for harassing neighbors you don't like.

You can't really say what other alternatives were available beyond that this is what the family preferred. The grandparents were available and that's what they chose.

They could just do what we do with every other crime, and only punish people AFTER we find that they're guilty. You say this like the parents absolutely NEEDED to be supervised, despite saying "we only did this because we didn't realize it was illegal" - this is not exactly a High Threat situation.

If CPS is going to force this sort of thing on parents, they could also reasonably be expected to compensate for the involved expenses - force CPS to pay for a nanny if CPS really thinks that's essential. If CPS can't afford to do that, then we as a society have already voted that the nanny wasn't actually worth the cost.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#559

Post by zhivota » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 9:49 PM UTC

This story is, in a nutshell, why me and my family have a plan to leave the US permanently within 2 years. We have a 4 year old and a 6 year old, and the possible futures we can see for ourselves and our children as they grow up are all dystopian to us.

We can have freedom for them to play outside, if we only live in a rural area where my wife and kids will be the only non-white people around, where we will be bound to use a car for every errand, and where the politics of everyone nearby will be opposite our own.

We can have a walkable neighborhood if we sacrifice safety and health (density in US cities is built on the busiest, most polluting roadways), or all of our savings to live in one of the very very few walkable, safe urban communities in the US.

These things don't appear to be improving. We have half the country engaged in absolutely insane conspiracy mongering including human trafficking stories that spark the behavior seen in the article (when the woman calls the police on the child walking alone outside). We have cities and states that prioritize the car over every other means of transportation, which creates unhealthy air, unsafe urban environments, and fractures communities as highways get wider and wider. We have defacto segregation in schooling and housing, coupled with rising nativism, that means if you are non-white, your options for where to live without sacrificing your basic dignity are severely constrained.

I'm not anti-US in a general sense, but I do think the above factors make it a sub-optimal place to choose to permanently settle at this point. The only reason I can see at this point to live in the US is the higher salaries, but once you've got enough where you can choose to forego that, I can't see good reasons to stay.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#560

Post by necovek » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 9:50 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #513

spfzero wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think humans discovered child welfare was important long before there were any organizations at all.

It's not usually safe to assume that current values are somehow invariant. Humans have never discovered child welfare was important, because that's not something you discover, it's something you decide. > Animals were legally defined as property, but Bergh's watershed legislation recognized cruelty as an offense to the animal itself—irrespective of ownership.(3) Historian Susan Pearson argues that these laws helped t…

"argues", "contends"...

And even with those qualifiers, you are only talking of legislative decision to protect child's welfare in USA. Eg. a quick search finds legislation aiming to improve protections for children in UK 50 years prior to your "1870s": http://history.parkfieldprimary.com/victorians/lord-shaftsbu...

Legislation is only needed when a particular behaviour becomes incompatible with current values, or has long been incompatible but becomes so prevalent to need legal recourse to stop. Children were protected by their parents and families through the ages, and while it was certainly not universal, it was prevalent. Though, I do recognize that the very definition of who children were was different, as it was mostly pre-puberty children to be treated with more protection.