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Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

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Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#551

Post by SamReidHughes »

jquery wrote: post #480
SamReidHughes wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The conservative WSJ using Asians as a wedge against Black people, Actually, they're using them as a wedge against universities, because (in their opinion) they're communist-infested indoctrination centers that scam humanities majors out of six figure sums of money. Harvard would be ruined if it had to turn itself into UC Berkeley. There's also the angle of chipping off some of the Chinese- and Korean-American elec…

All this post-racial idealism would land a lot better if we didn’t just get over 4 years of Trump, and if he wasn’t polling better than our current President. Given that, all these concerns about our precious post-racial paradise if it weren’t for those meddling progressives seems more than a little self-serving and disingenuous. I wonder how much confidence these keyboard warriors would have in person if they had to…

It sounds to me like you're still living in a world like the one right after the 2016 election where Democrats were all echo-chambering themselves that Trump is anti-Semitic. Party smears, versus reality.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#552

Post by abhink »

mohanmcgeek wrote: post #492
abhink wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the data is one google search away (granted, if you know some of the official caste related terms) https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/services/educa... Also, the example I have provided are from 15 years ago, when I appeared for these exams. I'm not going to bother finding verifiable information from back then but the figures I mentioned are pretty much what I saw.

Then this is probably news to you. Search for Minimum eligibility on these https://pib.gov.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=147623 https://indiankanoon.org/doc/93076753/

You and I are referring to completely different scores. It is true that a candidate needs to have scored a minimum percentage of around 50-60% in their high-school/intermediate board exams (so 10th/12th standard) to be allowed to sit in the selection examination.

The cutoffs I'm talking about are dependent on overall performance of all candidates. In the link I have shared this cutoff is 18% (89/480) for reserved category students. There are more details in the article about the cutoff for reserved category students being 60% of that of general category ones. There is further elaboration on how many students have to drop off because of their poor performance. These vacant seats are rarely filled.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#553

Post by doetoe »

abhink wrote: post #484
mohanmcgeek wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This means someone scoring 95% would not get get an admission offer while someone else scoring 15% would. Sounds entirely made up. All these exams generally have a minimum clearing criteria at 60-65%

I mean the data is one google search away (granted, if you know some of the official caste related terms) https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/services/educa... Also, the example I have provided are from 15 years ago, when I appeared for these exams. I'm not going to bother finding verifiable information from back then but the figures I mentioned are pretty much what I saw.

In the article the figures of 18% vs 36% are mentioned rather than 15% vs 97%.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#554

Post by giantg2 »

alistairSH wrote: post #522
giantg2 wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'd prefer we removed the sources of inequity. Do that and equality works itself out (in theory, anyways). ... I'm not sure about language and income policies, but at the same time, fixing those sources of inequity are massively complex and outside the scope of the school board." I agree that the main drivers of inequity in education are huge and mostly driven outside the schools. I think the schools need to act mos…

Why not start by removing the fees and standardized tests, then see how that works before implementing the more controversial subjective and class based changes? This sort of change would retain equality while reducing inequity. Agree - a less contentious approach to solving the problem would have been better. I would like to see how removing the fee and removing the test altered the composition of incoming classes,…

I agree, except maybe this part.

"At the end of the day, for whatever reason, Asians are disproportionately over-represented at TJ and that is a problem"

What do you mean? Just because representation varies from the population doesn't automatically mean there's a problem. Just as an example, I remember seeing a paper about why African American college graduates made less than white graduates. The major finding was that African Americans were more likely to choose careers that provide societal benefits, like social workers or teachers. But those jobs tend to be lower paid relative to college level jobs in the private sector. We could investigate if those jobs are adequately paid, but it isn't defacto evidence of system having a problem. It seems these aggregate measures tend to have problems with interpretation, just like the gender wage gap.

My guess would be that Asians are over-represented due mostly to cultural differences pertaining to parental expectations. Even with the recent changes designed to increase diversity and give preference to undeserved students and racial balancing, Asians make up about 50% of the student population. That's still over-represented. That's part of why I think there must be a home-life influence related to culture.

That's just my guess and my anecdotal experience, but some info does hint at support for this. Such as immigration rules implicitly selecting for intelligent/successful people and that the culture in many Asian countries highly values educational achievement. In the US we see almost 50% of Asian Americans have a BS or higher compared to around 28% in the general population. Yet I have not seen any policies explicitly favoring Asian Americans. This suggests to me a likelihood that it's culturally related and not directly a problem. The "problem" would be with other demographics not showing the same cultural emphasis on education.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#555

Post by notch656a »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #550
notch656a wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so define to me then the algorithm by which I can identify each race, if it is not poorly defined as you claim. What are the 'races' and precisely how can I categorize each person in them in a well defined way. >But it isn't poorly defined. Your race is the combination of your parents'. This is circular reasoning. My race is a combination of my parents' . So my race is my parents' combined race? The fact that you…

They would be correctly identified as their middle eastern ethnicities that they think themselves to be. > OK, so define to me then the algorithm Lol, like I'm going to waste my time doing that. Trace back ancestry until the family trees circle in on themselves. Identify and pick out the clusters and subclusters as finely as you think appropriate. > Your comment about 'college' 'indoctrination' is purely ad hominem f…

>Are you not regurgitating something you learned in college? Then where are you regurgitating it from?

What statement are you referring to me 'regurgitating'? I'm college educated but in the field of engineering, I don't recall having a discussion of this sort in college. Your statement is coming completely out of left field and frankly perplexing, again it seems you have some weird axe to grind about higher education.

>It's fair to say you're regurgitating indoctrination because virtually everybody else, unlike you, knows their racial background in an objective sense.

If I can 'know' my 'racial background' (which seems to mean race, otherwise this is just a red herring statement) in an 'objective sense', why would the bar be whatever I 'think' myself to be (your first sentence). Objective would mean my own opinions and personal feelings are irrelevant, thus someone else can make the call equally as well as myself with same available facts. Otherwise you would put the word 'subjective' here. What 'objective' facts are we using to determine my race?

That is:

>They would be correctly identified as their middle eastern ethnicities that they think themselves to be.

Contradicts

>virtually everybody else, unlike you, knows their racial background in an objective sense.

The second thing I learn from your first statement is that you seem to be saying race is what you(they) 'think themselves to be', and race is determined by self-selection. I honestly don't know what my race is from an 'objective' sense, that's why I'm asking you to provide a clear definition of what the races are and how to place each person in those buckets in an objective and fully defined way.

>Lol, like I'm going to waste my time doing that. Trace back ancestry until the family trees circle in on themselves. Identify and pick out the clusters and subclusters as finely as you think appropriate.

When pressed you clearly fail to either cite an algorithm that predicts self-selected race with 99.9999% parity, nor are you going to 'waste your time doing that.' So it's a completely unsubstantiated claim, along with virtually every other subjective opinion you offer. Presenting completely unsubstantiated claims as fact and then refusing to cite evidence nor 'waste your time' creating it, is precisely why I believe persons such as yourself are engaging in 'pseudo-science.'

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#556

Post by TheRealNGenius »

carrionpigeon wrote: post #252
TheRealNGenius wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, affirmative action is literally equal outcome at the expense of equal oportunity.

This is an oversimplification. It started out as: all things being equal, pick the black one. It applied to cases where one was torn between two equal candidates, and the idea was that a nudge toward hiring more blacks would help fix the disparities that arose from years of segregation and racial prejudice. The issue was that the standard for success of this program was racial proportions being equal to that of the g…

Yeah, you make great points. Equal opportunity should be upheld as a feature in an American styled democracy, whereas equal outcome is the proposed result in communist styled forms of governance. In this case, partitioning a fixed number of seats to a certain group of people based on race, wealth, gender (or any other categorization) such that it matches arbitrary demographic percentages year over year is an explicit adherence to equality of outcome. On the other hand, a strictly meritocratic allocation would represent a step towards equality of opportunity.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#557

Post by rayiner »

cwal37 wrote: post #362
ericd wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got the impression that he meant $1,000 total, not recurring. Surely most people can scrape together $1,000 over years, if it’s made a priority.

A potential disconnect is the timeframes, I would guess they went to school there decades ago? I have limited direct experience with the tutoring market here, having moved to the area as an adult without kids, but do have a family member and a colleague who did it for some extra cash and the costs I was hearing then (~4-5 years ago) were more like thousands. If I think about folks with kids on my block - again, limit…

There was an article in the mid 2015 timeframe about how the low income Chinese kids in NYC go to this prep center that’s $800 for a summer. Note that for the most part these are group classes, not 1:1, so you’re amortizing the cost over 6-8 kids in a small group.

No, they’re not “negligible.” And frankly I think opponents of standardized testing really overestimate how much test prep even helps. TJ is 70% Asian and only about 25% white, in an area where the median white household income is well north of $100,000/year. If test prep is what causes that disparity, as people suggest, then it’s worth it even if it’s a “substantial” rather than “negligible” expense. Outside the very bottom rung,[1] it’s a matter of financial priorities.

[1] That very bottom rung is quite a small percentage of the population. Keep in mind that only a few percent of the population makes minimum wage, and most of those people don’t have school-aged kids.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#558

Post by SamReidHughes »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #527
willcipriano wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids from single parent households are something like half as likely to graduate high school and considerably more likely to end up in prison. It's a big deal.

To be fair to SamReidHughes, almost none of that can be attributed to the fact that the household is missing a parent. Kids from single-parent households where the missing parent is missing through coincidence, such as by dying in an accident, perform at the same level as kids from two-parent households.

Yeah, attempts to show causality there have fallen down. And single parents aren't some abstract concept either; they largely aren't neglecting their kids.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#559

Post by SamReidHughes »

notch656a wrote: post #555
SamReidHughes wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would be correctly identified as their middle eastern ethnicities that they think themselves to be. > OK, so define to me then the algorithm Lol, like I'm going to waste my time doing that. Trace back ancestry until the family trees circle in on themselves. Identify and pick out the clusters and subclusters as finely as you think appropriate. > Your comment about 'college' 'indoctrination' is purely ad hominem f…

>Are you not regurgitating something you learned in college? Then where are you regurgitating it from? What statement are you referring to me 'regurgitating'? I'm college educated but in the field of engineering, I don't recall having a discussion of this sort in college. Your statement is coming completely out of left field and frankly perplexing, again it seems you have some weird axe to grind about higher educatio…

Do you disagree with 99.9999%? What do you think the accuracy would be?

Are you actually arguing some banal argument about taxonomic groupings in the edge cases or is it something else, where people can just make up their race?

Please explain why a professor had to resign for "lying" about being black: https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/professor-who-lied...

Please describe the algorithm that makes her non-black.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#560

Post by Kharvok »

a_c_s wrote: post #361
Kharvok wrote: post #350

People find the truth that standardized testing and school placement is mostly expressive of IQ uncomfortable. IQ is mostly genetic. When this doesn't evenly distribute across people groups people find it problematic. Again, this truth is uncomfortable. North east Asians in the US at or below the poverty line score better on average on the SAT than African-Americans from households with incomes above 100k. If there w…

IQ is neither fixed for a given person over their lifetime nor is it objectively measurable across different populations.

This is untrue.
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