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GDPR penalty for passing on of IP address to Google by using Google Fonts

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Re: GDPR penalty for passing on of IP address to Google by using Google Fonts

#551
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "what the hell"? This is exactly what happened, and a logical consequence the moment IP addresses are classified as private data. Which it is in a system where it can be used to find the civil identity of the user, which is the case in Germany via Vorratsdatenspeicherung and the rampant misuse of the legal system. Note how the decision contains the question of whether leaking the IP was necessary. They noted it i…

>> This is exactly what happened... Not quite? Wouldn't the users browser have sent its own IP address to Google? That's different that "forwarding" it, and it may not even be enough for Google to connect the user to that site.

This argument was tried in the Fashion ID case. A company had inserted Facebook Like buttons on the web page, and argued that it was not responsible for the ensuing disclosure of personal data (such as IP addresses or possible tracking cookies) to Facebook. See, it was the browser and not the website operator that disclosed the data, and the website operator never had access to the data in the browser in the first place!

The European Court of Justice did not buy this argument. By coding the website in a particular way, the website operator was responsible for causing the user's browser to act in a particular way, so it was the “data controller” for the collection an transmission of personal data by the Facebook Like button, though Facebook is of course jointly responsible for what their code does.

The underlying argument is that someone is a data controller and thus responsible for GDPR compliance when they determine the “purposes and means” of processing, alone or jointly with others. Embedding the code for the button was an exercise of this power to determine purposes and means. In contrast, the website operator is not a data controller for whatever Facebook does with the collected data on its servers, because it cannot control what FB does.

The given case from Munich is a very straightforward extension from the Fashion ID judgement, though the website operator didn't even claim that they weren't responsible. Instead, they argued that they had a “legitimate interest”in loading fonts from Google servers, which the court rejected. While I consider it probable that Google does not use data from Fonts servers for tracking, the judgement correctly points out that Google is well-known for tracking – but this doesn't matter anyway, since already the disclosure of personal data without a legal basis is a problem.

Re: GDPR penalty for passing on of IP address to Google by using Google Fonts

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But GP has a point: An IP address (together with a timestamp) may be used to identify you a person but if it's not connected to actual personal data (e.g. what website you visited), "leaking" it to Google doesn't provide Google with any data about you. I mean, IP address ranges are publicly known. If I now run a `for` loop over all IPv4 addresses and write them to my HDD, am I suddenly illegally storing personal data…

You are extremely naive if you believe Google can't infer anything if the referer is missing. An IP + user-agent combination (both of which are sent) is enough to uniquely identify a typical home user with high certainty unless they're behind a carrier-grade NAT and use a very popular browser.

Let's assume Google can identify the user but doesn't get a referrer. So what? The only information Google receives is that some user visited some unknown website at a particular time. How exactly would that lead to Google increasing its profits?

Re: GDPR penalty for passing on of IP address to Google by using Google Fonts

#553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these are the wrong solutions. What they're trying to do is to desperately hold on to doing "business as usual". Just now with a CYA fig leaf, and do I detect a hint of possibly a dash of malicious compliance? What the EU actually wants to accomplish is to set a standard where people do business in a different (safer/higher quality/more ethical) way[1]; which many believe is both better for consumers and for…

Sounds like ipv8 is needed to address this. :D

:-D something like zkIP (zero knowledge internet protocol)

Re: GDPR penalty for passing on of IP address to Google by using Google Fonts

#554
post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GDPR does not require consent for everything. It allows processing data that’s required to provide the desired functionality and payment processors would be covered (IANAL, to take with a grain of salt) You’d still need to mention that in the pages privacy policy, but other than that you should be fine, as long as you have the proper paperwork in place (DPA,…) and the payment processor is themselves GDPR complian…

I know, but I was referring to GGP call for explicit consent: > there should be zero third-party involved unless i explicitly consent.

My position on that is that clicking on “pay via X” constitutes consent.

Re: GDPR penalty for passing on of IP address to Google by using Google Fonts

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The web site did no such thing -- it served up a document that contained the reference. It is the end user that CHOSE to delegate interpretation of that document to a web browser (ad a counter example, look at how RMS browses the web). Yes this is less practical. But since the decision only deals with what is "possible", then logically it should be fully consistent. Now from a practical standpoint, I'd like to see a…

We had two: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P3P , https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Not_Track

I was thinking more along the lines of the "allow location" and "allow notifications" popups. The web site will ask you first, and if you say yes the browser then asks you in its own popup. Or you can tell the browser to always accept, or always allow on a per-site basis.

Re: GDPR penalty for passing on of IP address to Google by using Google Fonts

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, a font is not equal to "any content". So perhaps the issue is whether it is necessary/sensible, just for providing a simple font, to contact Google/any cdn. Spoiler, of course we all know it is not...

My reading is that nothing in the argument depends on the exact resource in question being a font, so I don’t see why it wouldn’t generalise to other resources.

> Google Fonts kann durch die Beklagte auch genutzt werden, ohne dass beim Aufruf der Webseite eine Verbindung zu einem Google-Server hergestellt wird und eine Übertragung der IP-Adresse der Webseitennutzer an Google stattfindet.

translated:

> Google fonts can be used by the defendant in a different way, so that a connection to the website does not make a connection to the Google server, thus without transmitting the IP address of the website visitor to Google.

Re: GDPR penalty for passing on of IP address to Google by using Google Fonts

#557
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two options to do what's required by the law: either A. not sending users' personal data to third parties; or B. receive informed consent from the users before sending their personal data to third parties. If the option B seems unwanted for some reason (any reason), there is still option A. Implementing a different solution (that breaks the law) has consequences.

This is a pretty sad state of affairs IMO. The fact is that CDNs and similar third party services play an important role. Websites wont stop us6them, it's not feasible (btw if I "host" my fonts in S3 do I have to get consent for sharing IP with Amazon? With DNS? with every router that goes through tracert?) . In reality, websites will add more crap "opt in" CYA forms at first loading, making the interaction fugly and…

> The fact is that CDNs and similar third party services play an important role.

They no longer do, since browsers implemented cache isolation.

> if I "host" my fonts in S3 do I have to get consent for sharing IP with Amazon?

No, you're supposed to contractually bind your vendors/service providers as data processors with a contract (“data processing agreement”) per Art 28 GDPR. There's some debate around whether US-based companies are legally able of entering into such an agreement (say hello to the Cloud Act from me), but the general consensus still is that non-US cloud regions might be OK, and that CDNs that let you sign a DPA (like Akamai, Cloudflare, Fastly, …) are also OK. In contrast, Google Fonts does not seem to be covered by the Google Cloud DPA.

> with every router that goes through tracert?

No, such mere transmission doesn't count as processing, and/or the intermediaries are responsible for their own compliance. In any case the connection should be protected by TLS so that only the client IP address + your domain name is visible to intermediate routers.

> websites will add more crap "opt in" CYA forms

Unfortunately, I agree, though the point of this judgement is that self-hosting some assets is a perfectly cromulent alternative. I think relying on “consent” would be difficult in a case like this, since it is not generally possible to make access to a service conditional on consent to unnecessary processing activities. Using a CDN for assets like files is unnecessary.

> I just wish that websites wouldn't force us outside of the EU to the asinine UX required by the EU

For EU-based websites there is no choice, as the law doesn't care about where the users are.

There's also a bit of irony in here that there has been a lot of work in replacing the cursed cookie consent requirements that gave us most of these annoying consent banners – but the past few months revealed that the US tech giants have been successfully lobbying against the proposed ePrivacy Regulation. So please redirect your ire against Google. Without them this might have been fixed in 2018.

Re: GDPR penalty for passing on of IP address to Google by using Google Fonts

#558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes. That's a fact. A 3rd party is a 3rd party and a website leaks it's visitors to it. Just don't do it but serve your stuff from your domain.

Doesn't this attitude overlook the "agency" of the "User-Agent"?

Note the text:

> It is undisputed that the plaintiff's IP address was forwarded to Google when the plaintiff visited the defendant's website.

In this context, "It is undisputed" does not mean "It is a truth universally acknowledged by everyone", but rather "there is no dispute between the defendant and the plaintiff that this happened; in the light of that non-disagreement, the court is not required to decide whether that happened or not, and will accept that as a fact".

So in this case, the defendant (as well as the plaintiff, of course) agreed that "the plaintiff's IP address was forwarded to Google when the plaintiff visited the defendant's website". If there was a place to bring forward this "agency argument", this was the place; however the defendant seems to have chosen not to bring it forward.

It may be because the defendant's lawyers are unprofessional and forgot; it may also be because they are professional and so they knew this argument would not hold.

P.S. see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30139489

Re: GDPR penalty for passing on of IP address to Google by using Google Fonts

#559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

those entrepreneurs unable to host their fonts.

Host on where though? You leak user's IP to your web host, to your CDN.

no, because that's where to visitor want to go by explicit free will. Not so a hidden 3rd party.

Re: GDPR penalty for passing on of IP address to Google by using Google Fonts

#560
post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you get the agency argument. Of course the request to the third party provider is causally related to the website sending the instructions. But while that is necessary for it to happen, it is not sufficient . The user agent's execution, on behalf of the user, makes it happen.

> I don't think you get the agency argument. I do get that argument; I just don't think it holds any water. If one hires a hitman to kill someone, that one may still be held accountable to manslaughter, even if that specific person didn't kill anyone themselves. It may also not matter how many degrees of separation are there between that person and the hitman: as much as putting a (Bitcoin) bounty on someone's head (…

I discussed that argument over here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30139489

Summary: A company did try the “it was the browser, not us” argument in the “Fashion ID” case. The court did not fall for it. Data controller and thus responsible for compliance is whoever determines the purposes and means of processing. Being able to control what the website does seems to be good evidence for being a data controller.

In this Google Fonts case, the website operator didn't even try this discredited argument.

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