Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation • Hacker News Board

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#551

Post by lotsofpulp » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:07 PM UTC

anshumankmr wrote: post #515

lotsofpulp wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does being a multi millionaire allow one to do? An old couple with a few million saved up for the rest of their life is protected against health risks and some inflation, but they are not likely going to be able to spend sufficiently to influence others.

Using this information here [1]( https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/24/where-bernie-sanders-money-c... ) and this calculator here [2]( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/07/21/are-you-in-... ), >annual income of 1,100,000 U.S. dollars for a household of 2 is equivalent to $1,309/day per person in 2011 in purchasing power parity dollars, putting you in the high income group worldwide, along with 39.8% of people in a…

Sanders does not have recurring annual income of $1M+. It was for a couple years due to selling a book at the height of his popularity. Having $1M+ in reliable, recurring income would allow a “multi millionaire” to have influence.

Certainly his position as US Senator and accompanying benefits is significant, but I was just commenting that being a “multi millionaire” is not indicative of much sway assuming multi millionaire also means having a few million in total net worth at retirement age.

Anyway, my point is, I would not qualify him as “elite” in the sense of being able to affect federal policy just by his regular income / net worth if he was not already a US senator. He would get outbid by many others with deeper pockets vying for political influence.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#552

Post by throwaway946513 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #528

fundad wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um good luck finding the car of your choice these days. Even before pando/trade war an in-demand model took weeks or months while other cars sit on lots. We can’t argue that quality of life is sooo much better when production is such a mess. The only reason we hear the complaints is because of quality of life. People with money can handle $1 more for an order of pretzel nuggets but make them wait and extra 2 minutes…

> in-demand model took weeks or months while other cars sit on lots. America's model of making a bunch of random models and shipping them out to sit on lots in the hope someone wants that model is bizarre. In most other countries you order exactly what you want and they build it.

It is also in part due to the explicit tie in of the dealership system by which we buy cars. Dealerships can't go away because they have baked the law around them. Automotive manufacturers are forbidden from building their own stores. Though this is a state by state issue, and Tesla is the manufacturer skirting this rule.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#553

Post by ghaff » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #446

deadbunny wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about the ability to drive around with GPS? Maps, and the ability to read them. > Or stay easily in touch with family living far away? Phones, you know good old land lines > Taking photos of your baby and having it stored on the cloud for free? Why do I need physical photos stored in the cloud? > The ability to learn almost anything for free? Have ya heard of libraries? Does technology make these more convenien…

Have you traveled using maps and GPS? They are very different, and not even comparable. It seems to me like comparing a shovel to a ditch digging machine. It is possible to navigate using maps. But not practical for the mass audience of GPS who can’t use maps. And impossible for the industries that require GPS (uber types). Technology is a multiplier that increases the returns on things my removing labor and letting…

I don't think anyone is disputing that technology makes things easier.

And I've frequently commented that early career me would be incredibly frustrated by the difficulty of accessing information about just about anything were I to be transported back in time.

But it's also the case that we were actually able to travel, communicate, and learn about things in 1990. Yes, it was generally higher friction and relied more on physical artifacts like maps and printed photos but we were able to manage quite well.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#554

Post by neilwilson » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

landemva wrote: post #105

neilwilson wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current price changes are due to a lack of supply, which the market is rationing. Remember firms will always try to charge a fortune for their stuff. It's only competition that stops that happening. Competition is excess supply, or at least excess supply capacity. When competition stops being effective, prices go up.

At least in USA, there is not really a shortage of natural gas or gasoline. Yet the prices have ramped up.

The question then is why haven't the price rises been subject to competition authority or anti-trust action.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/11/us-inf...

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#555

Post by massysett » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

jimbokun wrote: post #536

dan-robertson wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s I think this is obviously false and hurts the credibility of the rest of this comment. There are many pitfalls with measuring long-term inflation. How much did an internet connection cost in the 1970s? What about a computer? What about a smartphone? These modern technologies make peoples lives much better and were somewhere between impossible and impossibly…

> These modern technologies make peoples lives much better That's true in some ways, but in other ways these technologies make our lives better in the same way Heroin does. > Compared to the 70s, a new car is faster, safer, more comfortable, and more fuel efficient. Similarly, most houses are bigger and better in America today. Do you think these things are tied to meaningful improvements to people's overall happines…

Absolutely yes. I'm happier because my bathroom has two sinks so my wife and I can get ready for work at the same time. I'm happier because my house has more than one toilet so that I don't have to wait because someone is sitting on the only available toilet. I'm happier because my car has air conditioning. I'll absolutely be happier if an airbag saves my life, and infinitely happier than that if one saves my wife's life or my kid's life.

Yes. Technology and wealth makes our lives better and makes us happier. Yes.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#556

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #506

wonderwonder wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the important numbers here are the salary and housing cost ones. In 1970 the average house could be purchased for less than 2 years of salary. Today it costs 5.8 years of salary. The cost of housing has sky rocketed relative to income. Housing is the largest bill for the vast majority of people and it eats a massive portion of their take home. Likewise the cost of a vehicle has seen a very large increase perc…

>think the important numbers here are the salary and housing cost ones. In 1970 the average house could be purchased for less than 2 years of salary. Today it costs 5.8 years of salary. But no one pays cash for their house. They get a mortgage and so the monthly mortgage payment is (mostly) what matters. Back in the 70s you're paying 10%+ on your mortgage while today it's more like 3.

That is true, but somehow elides the reality that even if interest rates were zero, you would still end up having to "divert" 5.8 years of median salary to own a median house in 2021, which has significant implications for lots of other aspects of life, particularly but not limited to retirement.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#557

Post by mwigdahl » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #506

wonderwonder wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the important numbers here are the salary and housing cost ones. In 1970 the average house could be purchased for less than 2 years of salary. Today it costs 5.8 years of salary. The cost of housing has sky rocketed relative to income. Housing is the largest bill for the vast majority of people and it eats a massive portion of their take home. Likewise the cost of a vehicle has seen a very large increase perc…

>think the important numbers here are the salary and housing cost ones. In 1970 the average house could be purchased for less than 2 years of salary. Today it costs 5.8 years of salary. But no one pays cash for their house. They get a mortgage and so the monthly mortgage payment is (mostly) what matters. Back in the 70s you're paying 10%+ on your mortgage while today it's more like 3.

Sure, but the same inflation that was driving up mortgage rates was also reducing the real value of the balance of the loan. You can't just look at rates here.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#558

Post by fundad » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

mellavora wrote: post #255

silisili wrote: post #58

As someone who does OK, but lives in reality (not the bay area), I feel a revolution coming. I hope it's not a violent one, but who knows at this point. Hopefully it's just a politician with big policy changes. People feel completely disenfranchised. You keep hanging housing over their head but just out of reach like some baby toy, then inflation spikes everything else. What's the point of working even? I don't know…

Yeah, on that violent revolution thing. I've been thinking about it alot for the last few years, and then it dawned on me. 6 Jan 2021. The violent revolution will always need a leader. In a democracy, that leader will establish some level of political success. These statements derive directly from the definitions. So what we need to be on the lookout for is a political leader who normalizes mobs and violence, and qua…

Yes and many state houses were attacked on Jan 6 the weeks leading up to that, people closed a state legislature. Combine those and public schools with rising violence at private-sector workplaces (YouTube, VTA, clerks shot dead over masks)

The revolution is here in the form of workplace violence. Big employers are actually afraid to comment for fear of looking biased against the GOP

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#559

Post by what_is_orcas » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #401

hvidgaard wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What good is new tech if you cannot afford to buy a house or a new'ish car for the minimum wage, even if you live frugal and save?

Is it reasonable to expect that a minimum wage earner should be able to afford to buy a house and a newish car? Were minimum wage earners doing that in 1970?

Yes it is.

Why should the minimum wage not provide a sufficiently secure life for the worker?

I say this all the time: if you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage you can't afford to be in business.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#560

Post by wonderwonder » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #506

wonderwonder wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the important numbers here are the salary and housing cost ones. In 1970 the average house could be purchased for less than 2 years of salary. Today it costs 5.8 years of salary. The cost of housing has sky rocketed relative to income. Housing is the largest bill for the vast majority of people and it eats a massive portion of their take home. Likewise the cost of a vehicle has seen a very large increase perc…

>think the important numbers here are the salary and housing cost ones. In 1970 the average house could be purchased for less than 2 years of salary. Today it costs 5.8 years of salary. But no one pays cash for their house. They get a mortgage and so the monthly mortgage payment is (mostly) what matters. Back in the 70s you're paying 10%+ on your mortgage while today it's more like 3.

Sure, because no one has 5.8 years of cash on hand, its almost an impossible target for most. 2 years of cash is possible though. Even the ability to put down 6 months of cash would have a massive impact on a loan for 2x your salary and not so much on a loan for ~6x salary.

Not paying attention to the total and only focusing on the monthly payment is how most people get into future crushing debt and very much not a good thing.