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Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

reuters.com

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Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#551

Post by rewtraw »

fraud wrote: post #416
rawtxapp wrote: post #297

Even though I'm very bullish on crypto longterm and even though this crash caused me large loses on paper, I'm happy about it. I think a lot of people got very greedy and way overleveraged themselves which is not sustainable in the long-term. For example, almost 9B$ worth of crypto got liquidated in the last 24hr, that's insane. People chasing quick money get burned. 1: https://www.bybt.com/LiquidationData

What makes you bullish about crypto and what need do you see it fulfilling long term?

Most of HN isn't aware of the non-BTC, non-Ponzi protocols and dapps being built right now.

There are some very cool things like decentralized lending/borrowing, exchanges, cross-chain swaps, synthetics, etc. These protocols are revenue generating (via fees) and are actively used with billions in volume.

99% of crypto will die off, but the small part that survives could be the backbone of a very robust internet-native financial system.

Whether these DeFi primitives will ever be plugged into TradFi systems remains to be seen, but if nothing else, the ability for these protocols to easily interop is a huge win over existing systems.

Even if everything uses stablecoins and all "altcoins" are ignored, there is still value here.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#552

Post by thehappypm »

fraud wrote: post #416
rawtxapp wrote: post #297

Even though I'm very bullish on crypto longterm and even though this crash caused me large loses on paper, I'm happy about it. I think a lot of people got very greedy and way overleveraged themselves which is not sustainable in the long-term. For example, almost 9B$ worth of crypto got liquidated in the last 24hr, that's insane. People chasing quick money get burned. 1: https://www.bybt.com/LiquidationData

What makes you bullish about crypto and what need do you see it fulfilling long term?

You didn't ask me but I share this sentiment exactly. I think a digital currency is a neat idea. I think banks suck, their customer service sucks, their security sucks. I think the niche of a digital currency that's really like a more distributed Venmo is really cool.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#553

Post by UncleMeat »

intotheabyss wrote: post #96
Retric wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the purely technical level, Bitcoin’s current transactions per minute heavily limit it’s utility. The original goal was solving micro transactions which crypto coins could do, they just need to scale to ~100 Billion transactions a day +/- orders of magnitude. Unfortunately, miners benefit from the current artificial limitations. Which demonstrates an inherent issue with crypto currency, miners and users have very…

This might be shocking to people, but there are people in crypto that own zero Bitcoin. You can dislike Bitcoin and still be bullish on crypto.

I'm not sure it is possible to be bullish of crypto in general. Surely at most a small number of tokens will win and the rest will drop to zero. Owning the entire ecosystem isn't diversification like investing in many companies.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#554

Post by celticninja »

bigfudge wrote: post #540
celticninja wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't asking for a breakdown of you wealth, the fact you felt the need to provide it to me indicates that you are someone who puts great store in their ability to accumulate wealth. So, as much as you may dislike the implication that part of your dislike is rooted in having missed an opportunity, you are certainly not strengthening your case for the opposite. My point is more that people who are always on the look…

This is different to hating tiltok though. Ponzi schemes actually hurt real people when they collapse. I think it’s reason able to think that pointing out the emperor’s lack of clothes is public spirited.

Honestly 'its a Ponzi' has been debated a million times, it isn't, except in a really loose description into which any currency or asset could fall. They all rely on someone else wanting to pay more for an asset that you did. That's it.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#555

Post by notahacker »

vekker wrote: post #539
notahacker wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If no speculators want to pay you for your stock, you'd have a stake in a stream of future profits or asset sales that company made simply from hanging onto it. If no speculators are interested in your bonds, the issuer is obliged to pay you coupon payments until it matures simply because you hang onto it. If nobody speculated on your property, there's a lot you can do with the land whilst hanging onto it. Even a dub…

This discussion has no value if you were the only one participating. Facebook has no value if there are no "friends" to interact with. My point is, the same kind of network effects that make social media valuable, are also inherent to cryptocurrencies like BTC. Metcalfe's law applies. Just like fiat currencies, actually. So yes, new entrants are obviously important to achieve an increase in value (and therefore, pric…

It's not the "same kind of network effects" though. It'd be the same kind of network effects if the only reason people had Facebook (or telecoms) accounts is because they thought someone else might buy their account off them for more money. And if a social network came along with that value proposition - "sure, it doesn't actually do anything but the fact I sold some to this other sucker at a higher price than I bought it proves it's a store of value" - nobody would hesitate to call it a pyramid scheme.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#556

Post by NationalPark »

thebean11 wrote: post #546
NationalPark wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I mean you're just describing the opposite position, that the price of cryptocurrencies is reflecting some intrinsic value and that speculators have a negligible impact on the price. In that case market forces should eventually reveal some stable winners and all the deflationary stuff that lead us down this rabbit hole applies again.

No I don't see the relationship. Let's assume no intrinsic value for the sake of argument. How do you get from there to "additional coins steal market cap from existing coins"? Seems easy to craft some counterexample, like "Doge acts as a marketing campaign for crypto as a whole and will lead to net-inflows to the BTC market".

I'm just describing the plausible argument that the original commenter said didn't exist - to that end, it should be obvious that a bullish investor, who believes crypto is the future of finance, holding a balanced basket of crypto investments, might invest less in any individual coin as more potential successes appear that must be hedged against.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#557

Post by Infinitesimus »

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #285
jk7tarYZAQNpTQa wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're probably doing that to stop BTC from crashing even further. If BTC crashes, altcoins would probably follow (instead of taking BTC's position). Even if they don't follow, just BTC crashing would make exchanges lose the biggest chunk of their income. So shady business, but business as usual.

I agree, it's just a bit hilarious to imagine a normal stock market exchange trying to get away with things like that.

Circuit breakers exist to prevent wild swings on the stock market as well.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#558

Post by sashimi-houdini »

pilingual wrote: post #233
jmacd wrote: post #11

As an outside observer, who has no crypto holdings at all, but is very deeply invested in the public stock market with a heavy weight on technology stocks... this doesn't look like a crash to me at all. It just looks like some steam being let off and old investors cash out and new investors get more comfortable with how much and where to invest. I consider crypto currency as it is to be an elaborate Ponzi scheme (per…

Thank you for the disinterested take! It's refreshing to see this as a top comment when so often I see "Crypto makes me sick" which offers zero information and doesn't belong on HN. A few points to the repetitive comments I keep seeing: 1. Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme. Various cryptocurrencies operate in such a manner, but Bitcoin and Ethereum have value propositions: settlement and programmable money respectively.…

1.The term you're looking for is "naturally occurring Ponzi scheme" https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/handle/10986/19358

2. I literally don't know what this means. If it drops below 10, and you bought at 50k, you have an 80% loss. This might indeed induce "some nervousness".

3. Bitcoin is, per the title of the whitepaper, "A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System". You don't have to read very far into the whitepaper to understand that being a currency is 100% the stated objective. As you pointed out: it has failed miserably at that.

4. No... if this is a "Ponzi", then _on average_ there are more fools than smart people. Smart (or lucky) people are in fact a requirement of a successful Ponzi scheme... where else would the money go?

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#559

Post by inter_netuser »

arcticbull wrote: post #524
celticninja wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't asking for a breakdown of you wealth, the fact you felt the need to provide it to me indicates that you are someone who puts great store in their ability to accumulate wealth. So, as much as you may dislike the implication that part of your dislike is rooted in having missed an opportunity, you are certainly not strengthening your case for the opposite. My point is more that people who are always on the look…

> Missed a couple of early opportunities to buy eh? I was referring to the above. You are incorrect. I'm thoroughly enjoying myself, and this particular advocacy is making the world a better place.

making the world a better place = deny billions access to any financial lifeline they may have.

Those silly Zimbabweans, Venezuelans and Turks, why are they losing their life savings?

Can't they just do smart things like you, and login to an SIPC insured account to short Bitcoin right at the top without any counter-party risk, while their financial advisors manage the rest of their portfolios? Duh.

It finally makes sense, you are from the "let them eat cake" camp.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#560

Post by inter_netuser »

ulzeraj wrote: post #202
greg7mdp wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethereum will solve both issues, removing miners and the energy use by moving to Proof of Stake at the end on this year, and increasing the transaction throughput by 100x factors with level 2 solutions.

How does PoS solves anything when people will just stake on exchanges so that it literally replicates the current financial system with central banks and permissioned cartels? How new PoS coins will be generated and distributed? The stock has to be generated somehow right? How does this not resemble a central bank? This is an honest question. It looks like PoS is a full circle towards the same centralized system we h…

You are exactly correct.

It is plutocracy, but with emojis.

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