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Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

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Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH a lot of people don't have that many choices. I mean if a dream company gives me an offer with a reasonable salary, I'd jump for it without hesitation. A lot of people are OK with median salary.

Putting my hiring manager’s hat on, I recommend asking for more, without hesitation. There is practically no downside. Especially if it’s your dream company, because you are likely to be extra motivated, and this is a case you can genuinely make. Once an offer’s already on the table, the worst possible outcome from asking will be “sorry, that’s as high as we can go right now” without any rancour. If instead the respo…

The problem here is that (aside from the usual "FAANG or nothing" sentiment): you assume everyone can get a FAANG job to begin with. Apple never called back after my campus interview, I didn't make it past Google's automated programming test. I had no link to Microsoft so I just have a online resume in the virtual void.

That first job hustle is painful. I definitely wouldn't be where I was today if I didn't spend a few years at a local studio, if only because it gave relevant work experience to what I wanted to do. Even if it was paying me half my current salary it was well worth the experience.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#552

Just to have a bit of a counter argument from me, a game developer who loves games and has worked in the US games industry for the majority of my 20 years career: If your argument is "You can make more at a FAANG company" - well yeah, you can. You don't work in gaming because you want to make the top salary. You work in gaming because you love games and you enjoy having all your coworkers also love games and being ab…

> Also the argument that it's "grueling 80+ hour weeks day in and day out is" is bullshit! The only time I ever worked 80 hours in a single week was when I was starting out in Quality Assurance and I was getting paid hourly so I was happy to make the extra overtime. Sorry but I'm going to call bullshit on your bullshit. Spent ~5 years in the industry and every place I worked crunched like hell and every place that my…

anecdotes are just that. They vary wildly.

Me: I worked 3 years, had a total of 6 weeks of crunch @50-55 hours/week, compensated 1.5x and with "free" dinner (AKA they actually complied to state law due to staying after 6PM). This was after literally cutting the content of the game in half due to client deadlines (A certain Big Tech company was not going to delay their product just because they set unreasonable deadlines to the studio). Attitude wise, no one liked it. Manager didn't pretend to be pleased with the discussions.

No extra vacation, but overall it wasn't one of those death grinds people talk on the internet about. I think both tales are valid, but of course one of them gets a lot more attention.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#553

Just to have a bit of a counter argument from me, a game developer who loves games and has worked in the US games industry for the majority of my 20 years career: If your argument is "You can make more at a FAANG company" - well yeah, you can. You don't work in gaming because you want to make the top salary. You work in gaming because you love games and you enjoy having all your coworkers also love games and being ab…

This is a fair take, but modern gaming companies have similar margins as other consumer tech companies since they are operating on profitable business models such as subscription and micro-transactions. The gaming industry has been playing the same card movie studios play which is “This is a passion industry. Come and work for us but we can only offer this range of compensation and this type of contracts because we a…

>they are operating on profitable business models such as subscription and micro-transactions.

some do, many don't. Not even all AAA companies have gone this route. Let alone all the mid sized studios out there contracted to make games. I'm sure Rockstar and Blizzard could, but the industry isn't just those two companies.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#554
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should take some personal responsibility and stop blaming your life choices on other people. There's also a world of difference between saying that a FAANG salary isn't the most important part of a job for some people, and saying people in game dev shouldn't have a good salary.

> You should take some personal responsibility and stop blaming your life choices on other people. You should stop jumping to conclusions. Nothing I said indicated I don't take responsibility for that decision. I can choose not to take a job because of crappy pay, but I can still point out why the job has crappy pay (and the reason is not me). > There's also a world of difference between saying that a FAANG salary is…

>I don't get paid anywhere near FAANG salary, but I bet I get paid more per hour than most game devs.

if you include the small studios, sure.

if you are focused on the big AAA studios like most of this topic is, I would doubt it. Blizzard may not be paying Google money, but the engineers there aren't making peanuts either.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Underrated comment. It's even worse when you consider that the engines are generally already made, you only need developers to do what you could almost call glorified scripting compared to engine development. I think Unity and Unreal probably have to pay their devs a reasonable salary. But having devs work in Unity or Unreal to produce a game is not really all that hard. That's kind of the point of Unity and Unreal.

Have you actually worked with a game engine. I'll say any day of the week game programming is harder than front end web dev

I didn't take their comment that way.

I saw it more in that it's not the early '00's anymore where every company had their own custom engine. you can hire devs into a company with experience in UE4 or Unity and skip a significant amount of onboarding, especially if they are hired early into a project. There are certainly hard parts, but this means you can pay junior engineers to worry about "easier" parts of the game while letting the seniors/leads worry about architecture, infrastructure, and optimization. Not too unlike a front end web dev from what I've hears.

And for "street cred" I've worked in all 3 environments, unity projects, UE4 projects, and custom engines.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#556
post #384
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an unnatural/weird way to look at it. If the engineer provides $500k value per year, and they get paid $500k per year, the company makes $0 profit. By that logic, the only way to not be underpaid is for the company to be in the red; but if that happens, there won't be a company to pay you! Plus, it's likely any other engineer could provide the same value. So (as always) it's about supply and demand. In this ca…

It's not unnatural at all, or at least it's not any more unnatural than someone getting to keep a portion of your labor's profit just because they put the most money down when they started the company. A workers co-op, for instance, splits all the profits between all the employees in an arrangement that is basically "we collectively produced profit X we all get an equal share of that profit." While "unnatural" is the…

it's unnatural because that's not how a business builds. Even with profit sharing, you need to put a portion back into the business (not the CEO, not the worker, but into a metaphorical savings account). if you're giving 100% of labor back to the workers, there's no room for the company to grow and eventually everyone gets $0 when the company shutters.

Even a mom and pop shop of 1 needs to operate on these parameters. Heck, even a personal checking account. You keep some money in reserve for a rainy day, and some in the deep reserves for retirement (401k). You very rarely get 100% of your money in liquid (regardless of if you feel underpaid or not), nor do many desire to.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#557

In Japan, the game and anime industries are called "aspiration industry" because of the reasons discussed here. There is also a term "aspiration abuse". That is because it's not only about the market dynamics (supply vs demand) but also a information asymmetry involved. It is considered more like a problem of immigration brokers: They sell dreams, but many of them are fake.

in all fairness, if the stories on Japan are true there isn't such thing as a healthy work/life balance period.

At that point, if I'm gonna spend half my life (and 90% of my waking life) at work, I may as well try and like doing what I do.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After reading the parent comment, I have a feeling they didn't mean it as "nobody should work overtime for free [even once or ever]", but more like "nobody should work overtime for free [as the norm, on a regular basis]". If that was indeed what the parent comment truly meant, would you still disagree with it? Because I am of the same opinion as you that complete outright rejection of overtime, even if it is only onc…

Do you reject volunteering? Do you reject volunteering for non-profits? What about non-profits that have some paid employees? What about for-profit companies that you believe have a net positive effect on the world? What about jobs that you think are fun, I dunno maybe white water guiding, that happen to be for for-profit non-benevolent companies? The whole idea of "you shouldn't work if you're not getting paid" is a…

>Do you reject volunteering?

No, I don't. My reply was in the context of full-time employment, not part-time volunteering for some cause on your own free time whenever you choose to.

"Volunteering" for your employer isn't really volunteering, I hope you realize that.

>The sentence "never work for a company for free" is utterly wrong-headed.

It is about as wrong-headed as saying "I refuse to make extra profit for my employer on my own free time on a regular basis without receiving extra pay in return" is.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you actually worked with a game engine. I'll say any day of the week game programming is harder than front end web dev

I didn't take their comment that way. I saw it more in that it's not the early '00's anymore where every company had their own custom engine. you can hire devs into a company with experience in UE4 or Unity and skip a significant amount of onboarding, especially if they are hired early into a project. There are certainly hard parts, but this means you can pay junior engineers to worry about "easier" parts of the game…

>But having devs work in Unity or Unreal to produce a game is not really all that hard.

From OP.

Even with an engine game dev is much harder than front end web dev. The depressed salaries are due to the amount of passion game devs have.

Then again doing something in Unity is much easier than building an engine out. I credit Unity with teaching me to program.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#560
post #2

What is it about game development field that makes it so labor intensive with consistent overtimes? I tried to make a simple FPS game and it was astounding how much work was involved. Took 6 month of learning Unreal and Unity and gave up with a functioning prototype. Took 4 months of back and forth with Steam to list my game. Even harder trying to make money off it. I'm just in awe of Roblox, Minecraft, Fall Guy and…

1. it's a multidisplinary effort that involves interfacing not just with engineers, managers, and maybe clients, but with artist, writers, sound designers, and sometimes voice actors. Very, very few people will have the full scope of a large game in their mind makling a game. It also means one of these pieces can vastly slow down the entire pipeline if they get slowed down/behind schedule.

2. many traditional games operate on movie schedules; i.e. timing is everything. missing a launch at November vs. January can cost millions, and most sales are recuped in the first few months. So the pressure to hit deadlines is heavier than some continual service brining in a steady revenue stream. Granted, the rise of Games as a Service through the free-to-play model is starting to change this, for better or worse.

3. even within programming, there are so many topics that games delve into. Graphics programming, netcode, UI/UX design, (basic) AI, etc. you need some very specialized people to make these games, up there with a FAANG despite most studios making nowhere near that much.

4. you can't schedule "fun". Game design is almost a black box. If you flesh out this system and it just doesn't feel good, what do you do? delay the game and overspend on the budget? release it anyway and take the critical panning (spoilers, most games do this option)? this mixed with #1 means it's harder than usual to schedule, even with the widsom of "double the time needed".

5. more of a personal take here, but based on #4: games are much more "in tune" with the consumer audience than other media. core gamers watch games like hawks and it seems like everything being worked on is covered in NDA's. some onlooker would think these studios are hiding governemt secrets with how tight lipped industry keeps devs.

This leads to many psychological factors, but as a TL;DR it means a) devs may have internal pressure to impress the audience compared to other sectors and b) consumers, being blacked boxed out of the process, underestimate how much work it is to make a game. A consumer base more internet saavy than any other medium before it, since gaming basically grew up with the internet side by side.

It's many factors and I'm sure I haven't even covered half of them in that wall above.

>I'm just in awe of Roblox, Minecraft, Fall Guy and all these other successes.

I'm sure minecraft and roblox are impressed too. they took years to get to where they are, so they are some of the counterexamples to the traditional model I listed.

Fall guys truly proves point #2. it came out at the perfect time (a time no one could predict far out enough to take advantadge of) and blew up for it.

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