Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#551

Post by 8note » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:30 AM UTC

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #527

dragonwriter wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honest question: why do discussions about minimum wage in the U.S. never propose having teenagers having a different minimum to adults? Because its effect would be a transfer of jobs from working class adults to middle class kids.

Do you think so? While companies are incentivized to hire kids, the kids don't get any more incentive to do these jobs though (wage stays the same), and neither would the supply of them grow.

Do the kids become more incentivized to work if their parents income decreases?

I would say yes

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#552

Post by lucian1900 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:31 AM UTC

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #539

lucian1900 wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently, US capitalists exploit workers both in the US and in poorer countries, with the later being super-exploited. Under this arrangement, the vast majority of the value created by both groups of workers is captured by a handful of capitalists. A socialist US would cease exploiting other countries (including China) and instead pursue mutually beneficial trade (much like China does). This would likely include som…

Exploitation that ultimately helped lift a billion people out of poverty in China. A socialist US would probably, like most prior countries that called themselves socialist, be a poor, oppressive hellhole.

Poverty has decreased in China in spite of US imperialism, not because of it. Most notably, poor capitalist countries have had poverty increase in the past several decades instead.

All countries that have had a successful socialist revolution so far were oppressed impoverished ones. They all then went on to develop very quickly, in spite of constant attack from the imperialist countries. An already-developed former imperialist country would face no such challenges.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#553

Post by 8note » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:32 AM UTC

angmarsbane wrote: post #474

bradleyjg wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One concern is that this makes teenage employees relatively more attractive and so increases the adult unemployment rate above what it would be with a uniform minimum wage.

I had this concern until I realized teenagers have to go to school so there’s a huge chunk of the day that they cannot work. Adults have to take those shifts. This realization also led me to determine that these jobs aren’t purely for teenagers despite hearing all my life burger-flipping was for teens.

Not all teenagers are required to go to school.

Dropping out is possible, and usually 18/19 y/o don't have high school

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#554

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:32 AM UTC

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #532

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

Think of the business side of the problem as a collective action problem. You want to pay your workers a living wage, but to do so, you have to raise your prices. If you raise your prices, your business will go to your competitor, so you can't exist if you increase your wages (and your competitor doesn't). Meanwhile your competitor wants to increase wages but doesn't for the same reason. If the government mandated th…

[deleted]

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#555

Post by 8note » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:35 AM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #425

rbg246 wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think needing to survive forces or keeping your human dignity forces you to find a job? That's the way I see it.

That job might not exist at all if the government mandates your wage to be higher than the value of your labor.

More specifically, the value of your labour minus the profit that the capitalist wants to make off your labour

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#556

Post by kova12 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:35 AM UTC

"which somehow fails to mention that the owner is a Covid hoaxer (he believes that doctors have been falsely labeling deaths as Covid-related) and has brazenly violated masking rules, and did not require employees to wear masks" - I could tell, this author strikes right where the problem is: his personal biases.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#557

Post by punkra » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:36 AM UTC

whatever1 wrote: post #544

zizee wrote: post #382

Honest question: why do discussions about minimum wage in the U.S. never propose having teenagers having a different minimum to adults? In australia we have a $12.50/hr minimum for 15 year olds. It climbs in increments until about $25/hr. This system allows teenagers to get a foot in the door for low-skilled jobs, and allows adults to get paid a livable wage. The result is that a lot of fast food jobs are performed b…

Then we should also give minors the right to vote, form unions etc. What you propose is exploitation, since you get to decide their rights and btw you also decided that their labor is worth less, but they have no say in all of these.

Came here to agree with this, there are laws against the federal government setting discriminatory minimums like this. In the eyes of just about any federal judge the original suggestion would get the entire bill shot down. Also people in this thread talking about how they think this is fair based on experience or cause "teens are stupid" thats entirely misguided of you all to think, there are kids who start working in some states LEGALLY at 14.5 years old, example: N.C. so when they are 16 or 17 they can legally be paid the same 'juvenile' minimum wage? No fast food company or grocery store will actively pay them more if they don't have to and that means less raises and how would all these companies even be monitored and audited for the crossover on ones 18th birthday? What about kids who are emancipated for their parents/legal guardians? What about kids who drop out of school and work? Do they all deserve to make less just because of their age? Geez, the actual obliviousness of people on this site is astonishing sometimes.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#558

Post by inetknght » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:38 AM UTC

betwixthewires wrote: post #326

inetknght wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.* Wow can you be any more out of touch? Your comment is offensively innaccurate. $58/day = $1740 for 30 days Unhealthy cheap carbs for a single person... $200/month (chicken, beans, rice, milk, chee…

I don't know where you live, but you're the one that is out of touch. 2 tanks a week? 200 bucks a month for shit tier food? Ever heard of cooking? 1400 a month rent? I've spent time in Houston, on minimum wage, and in the past decade. It was alright. I even had the money to go out drinking every weekend, by Rice university at that. Usually when you hear arguments like this and you get down to brass tacks, you start t…

> 2 tanks a week?

When I lived in Spring and commuted to the office at 610 North and I-45, it was 2 tanks a week for the 35 minute drive. That was 7 years ago.

> 200 bucks a month for shit tier food? Ever heard of cooking?

One week of food for one person:

2lb white rice, $1.5 1lb beans, $1.25 2lb ground meat, $10

1gal milk, $4 1lb sharp cheddar, $5 1 loaf bread, $3.5

total... $25. Times four weeks, you get $100. I never claimed to be good at cooking.

> 1400 a month rent?

Due on the 1st, late on the 3rd.

> "I should be able to have extra money for fun"

There's nothing wrong with wanting extra money for fun.

> "I blow my money on things I can't afford and then blame the world for being broke."

Minimum wage doesn't have money to blow things on things they can't afford though.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#559

Post by shannifin » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:38 AM UTC

>"Collectively, we should be thinking of different funding models, different ownership scenarios, and different growth imperatives. Failure to do so is simply resigning ourselves to another round of this rigged game."

I don't accept the verdict that these economic hardships necessarily mean that "capitalism is broken" or "rigged" or that we need to rethink "ownership scenarios" (whatever exactly that means). The economy is a vastly complicated system of countless trades per day, and there are a lot of variables in flux that are making things very crappy for a lot of people. But I fear trying to make things better by blaming it on capitalism being "broken" or a "rigged game" is more likely to make things worse.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#560

Post by dv_dt » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:39 AM UTC

zizee wrote: post #382

Honest question: why do discussions about minimum wage in the U.S. never propose having teenagers having a different minimum to adults? In australia we have a $12.50/hr minimum for 15 year olds. It climbs in increments until about $25/hr. This system allows teenagers to get a foot in the door for low-skilled jobs, and allows adults to get paid a livable wage. The result is that a lot of fast food jobs are performed b…

The average age of a fast food worker is 29.5.

https://www.davemanuel.com/2011/04/21/the-average-age-of-a-f...