Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up • Hacker News Board

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#551

Post by vmception » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 11:48 PM UTC

notsuoh wrote: post #512

pm90 wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won’t even pretend to know enough to be able to solve this problem. But does your social circle not include other female friends that you could discuss the optics of this situation with? Or better yet, be honest with the female friend that you wanted to advice, pointing out what she had done before and expressing your apprehension in providing critical feedback?

"But does your social circle not include other female friends that you could discuss the optics of this situation with?" Respectfully, this shouldn't be on the person from whom advice is being sought, but on the asker. "Or better yet, be honest with the female friend that you wanted to advice, pointing out what she had done before and expressing your apprehension in providing critical feedback?" If someone asked me t…

the oppression olympics get nobody anywhere

the problems genders face are interrelated, invalidating all men that complain about something just because of a history specifically disenfranchising women will not help your cause

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#552

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 11:49 PM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #521

daenz wrote: post #505

There's a dark irony to the idea that the defenses against sexism (standing up and calling people out) are also causing an unintended secondary sexism by discouraging equal treatment out of fear of accusations. I've held the belief that if a someone can't recognize and clearly identify the differences between criticism based on merits and criticism based on bias, then there is no point attempting to do "what they wan…

What is going today is far beyond calling out sexism (racism, homophobia, etc.). We’ve gone from closeted and dangerous bigotry to open and dangerous guilt-by-accusation.

Not to mention stuff you did as a teenager can somehow disqualify you for future prospects.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#553

Post by godelski » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 11:49 PM UTC

Decker87 wrote: post #545

godelski wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fear based actions can still be sexist though. We're talking about treating people different based on their sex. Let's draw a parallel. Most people would consider crossing the street because there is a black man walking towards you as a racist action. Sure, not burning a cross in their lawn racist, but racist nonetheless (it's a spectrum). I would argue that people that do this do so because they are afraid of said b…

I disagree with this definition of sexism.

Would you like to expand on that point?

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#554

Post by vmception » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 11:52 PM UTC

awb wrote: post #499

Thorentis wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is described in the article isn't sexism - it's fear. Fear of being labeled as a sexist.

It’s probably both. The men are assuming based on the female founder’s gender _alone_ that she might accuse him of sexism. Regardless of how rational this fear is, they are stereotyping new female founders they’re meeting for the first time based on what an X% of other female founder’s have done in the past. For the men, it’s probably a risk/reward calculation. Keep your head down and be polite and have ~0% chance of…

I just want to say that all the light greyed out comments match my upbringing and worldview as well

Without an explanation about which parts people find disagreeable, assuming thats how people are even using the voting system here, I have no idea what the real world consensus is or what they wish for it to be

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#555

Post by brindlejim » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 11:53 PM UTC

awb wrote: post #499

Thorentis wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is described in the article isn't sexism - it's fear. Fear of being labeled as a sexist.

It’s probably both. The men are assuming based on the female founder’s gender _alone_ that she might accuse him of sexism. Regardless of how rational this fear is, they are stereotyping new female founders they’re meeting for the first time based on what an X% of other female founder’s have done in the past. For the men, it’s probably a risk/reward calculation. Keep your head down and be polite and have ~0% chance of…

People's reputations and careers can be destroyed by a simple accusation of discrimination made on social media, let alone by an accusation levied by a founder against one of their investors.

If the accused also have a powerful position at a company, then that company also faces large liabilities, both reputational and financial. Everyone knows that the costs of litigation in the US are astronomical.

It is less known but equally true that the costs of arbitration (and to a lesser extent, mediation) can be high. Prohibitive for a startup, still painful for a larger company. Which means that all a potential accuser needs to do to get their pound of flesh is threaten litigation, and name an amount less than what would be paid in arbitration.

So our current system, on social media and in the courts, puts a tremendous amount of power in the hands of those who might accuse. And yes, the gender _alone_, or protected minority status _alone_, is enough to set off alarm bells in an executive who has already been burned.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#556

Post by danielmarkbruce » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 11:53 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #544

downandout wrote: post #502

Anyone who is pragmatic and willing to take open and honest advice/criticism from people they respect needs to advertise themselves that way in today’s environment. It is on the entrepreneur to convince the person from whom they are seeking advice that they will not regret giving it. As an alternative, perhaps investors should offer an optional “advice NDA” that would allow them to speak more freely, with less fear o…

For the (at least) 2 people that downvoted this: what part of this comment is controversial or offends you? I don’t see it, and I would love to understand. Downvoting without comment does no good for anyone.

I didn't do this in this situation, but I sometimes downvote by accident in an attempt to collapse. There are a lot of people on this thread so it could have happened.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#557

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 11:53 PM UTC

neonological wrote: post #252

jxidjhdhdhdhfhf wrote: post #17

This is kind of the end result we're heading for, where you can only talk candidly with people who are equal or lower than you on the oppression hierarchy. The shitty part is that I'm pretty sure 99% of people are reasonable human beings but the media has to make it seem like that isn't the case so the risk equation changes. Similar to how kids used to roam around the neighborhood but now it's deemed too risky becaus…

I don't blame the media for this. The media just magnifies a very real and sizable aspect of our culture that already exists. Just like how these people are seeking someone to blame, you are seeking the same when you blame the media. It's not just the media, what's going on here is something we're all responsible for.

[deleted]

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#558

Post by timoth3y » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 11:53 PM UTC

While I have no doubt that the author's examples are true, and of course sometimes feedback is misinterpreted. However, I've never found this line of argument compelling.

Yes, as a man, sometimes you do have to be careful about how you give feedback to female founders, coworkers, or employees. It's a skill to be developed just like 1,000 other little skills you need to develop be reasonably successful in life.

This same "but men might get in trouble for an innocent mistake" argument was used when women first entered the workforce to decry the unreasonable burden having to work with women placed on men. You still see variations on it today.

Yes, Twitter mobs are a thing and the people who participate in them are horrible. But if you are having trouble giving feedback to women, that is not women's fault. It is simply a skill you need to develop.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#559

Post by DoreenMichele » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 11:53 PM UTC

awb wrote: post #499

Thorentis wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is described in the article isn't sexism - it's fear. Fear of being labeled as a sexist.

It’s probably both. The men are assuming based on the female founder’s gender _alone_ that she might accuse him of sexism. Regardless of how rational this fear is, they are stereotyping new female founders they’re meeting for the first time based on what an X% of other female founder’s have done in the past. For the men, it’s probably a risk/reward calculation. Keep your head down and be polite and have ~0% chance of…

The men are assuming based on the female founder’s gender _alone_ that she might accuse him of sexism.

Not necessarily. In a social situation, you may be more afraid of what other people will think than of what that one person will think.

If that one person misreads you and hates you, it's not some big career-ending problem. It only becomes a big career-ending problem when a whole lot of other people agree that you doing X is some major issue that "obviously" was rooted in some kind of nefarious intent, such as sexism.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#560

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 11:54 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #502

Anyone who is pragmatic and willing to take open and honest advice/criticism from people they respect needs to advertise themselves that way in today’s environment. It is on the entrepreneur to convince the person from whom they are seeking advice that they will not regret giving it. As an alternative, perhaps investors should offer an optional “advice NDA” that would allow them to speak more freely, with less fear o…

The NDA comment actually is an interesting thought. I wonder if that may actually get implemented in the future actually. And basically women would be breaking the NDA by complaining they had to sign an NDA thusly inferring an irrational accusations online that we've seen run rampant in the past decade.

If I was in management, I'd at least consult my HR department about it. Better safe in court.