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EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

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Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#551

Post by eivarv »

mkhpalm wrote: post #388
eivarv wrote: post #30

I'm sick and tired of seeing tech-illiterate decision makers on both international levels attempt to thwart our right to privacy. Does anyone know what we or I can do (in this case specifically) to help fight this idiocy?

Its a bit naive to believe decision makers are tech-illiterate. Why not consider that they are both literate and understand what they are asking for? Is it because we don't like what that means?

Because recordings of politicians interacting with experts and NGOs in a recent Norwegian hearing (about bulk metadata collection) makes it seem they have no practical understanding of the subject matter.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#552

Post by Cthulhu_ »

int_19h wrote: post #502
Zenst wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd of thought that Article 8 of human rights would encompass this. https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/arti...

That's right to privacy, not right to encryption specifically. And governments cracking down on encryption will, of course, claim that it is a matter of national security, and is a proportionate action to fight terrorism, child pornography, and other crimes.

Just like phone taps and listening devices. That said, those should only be employed if there is reasonable suspicion; iirc they still need a judge to approve employing these tools.

The fear with this is that they will try and catch all messages and retroactively look for bad actors. And of course that the backdoors will be discovered and abused by bad actors.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#553

Post by GekkePrutser »

hated wrote: post #395
GekkePrutser wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WhatsApp is hardly safe from prying eyes anyway. Sure, there's always-on E2E encryption that is really well designed. However, WhatsApp constantly prompts every user to back up to the cloud, which is much less well secured. Thus, it's pretty trivial for the authorities to get to it there, I'm sure they can get into iCloud and Google Drive if they want to. It only takes one person in the conversation to have this opti…

Which is to say WhatsApp is perfectly secure as long as the hostile actor cannot access the WhatsApp backups. Only nation state actors might be able to do that.

Yes but as a user you don't control this. That's the problem. Anyone you're talking to can activate cloud backups and there is no way to know.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#554

Post by Cthulhu_ »

jordanbeiber wrote: post #544
freeflight wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Switzerland and several other Eurpean countries have very high rates of gun ownership, but low rates of gun violence. They also have vastly stricter gun regulation laws, and while ownership rates are high in some, the US is an extreme outlier and no other country comes even close. Because nobody in any European country thinks they have a "right" to own a gun, most of them could if they wanted to, but they simply do…

The fact so many people feel they need a gun for safety is the first and biggest issue IMO. This is fueled by movies and culture - have the gun in your possession and you’ll automatically win the fight - that was easy! I’ve read countless comments from Americans that they have a gun to shoot intruders. Statistics telling you there’s a bigger chance someone else will get hurt be damned. These ideas are have to be fuel…

It's the wild west mentality that the US never grew out of. Can't blame them either, given the apparent incompetence of the police.

It's an issue that won't be solved by banning weapons. Educating people (e.g. mandatory background checks, operation and safety training, and safe storage) and solving the underlying problems will work. I mean a lot cite defense from home invasions as the reason to own a gun. Why do people invade homes? If they had a reasonable income and comfortable life they wouldn't have a reason to.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#555

Post by bergstromm466 »

dleslie wrote: post #470
damnencryption wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. We live in such a dangerous world that the biggest reason for cause of death in many developed countries is suicide, obesity, diseases, etc.

The world is so safe that instead of dying from war, famine or untreatable infectious disease, those in developed countries are dying from diseases of wealth and comfort.

Obesity does not imply over-use of food with high nutritional value.

In other words, obesity comes from worse diets. The working classes are bombarded with corporate foods that contain way too much sugar, etc.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#556

Post by romanoderoma »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #374
romanoderoma wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were told a lie. USA has been doing it as long as the second war started and never stopped. And they consider strong encryption a weapon. Are you familiar with the Zimmermann case?

It's also big in the Netherlands.. In the 90s they had the biggest number of phone taps in the world, and this is not per capita, but the absolute number! With a population a mere fraction of the US's. However the Netherlands is a fairly honest country when it comes to statistics, so I wouldn't be surprised that the US still came out on top, but they just didn't report most of their taps for 'national security' reaso…

> Before this there was no way to literally monitor everyone

The DDR did it

Another important factor is that until 20-30 years ago people communicated a lot less

They mostly talked face to face

The challenge today is not easier: to literally monitor everyone is not possible, the signal to noise ratio is too high

They could listen to everyone, it's doubtful it is possible to extract any meaningful information on random communications between random people that are not being monitored because they are already of interest

As someone else said metadata is more important because it allows to create connections between actors from thin air. When you have narrowed the scope, listening becomes a lot more effective.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#557

Post by raverbashing »

So apparently no-one read the article itself

Read it, it's in English and it's pretty straightforward

> technical solutions for gaining access to encrypted data must match the principles of legality, necessity and proportionality.

> Since there is no single way of achieving the set goals (read, banning or limiting encryption), governments and industry need to work together to create this balance

See https://twitter.com/iiyonite/status/1325589752431697927

Also relevant https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/international-sta...

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#558

Post by depressedpanda »

jordanbeiber wrote: post #523
KMag wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. certainly has a problem with gun violence, but I fear gun access is the proximal problem while our cultural relationship with violence and revenge is the root of the problem. (See also death penalty support, recent violent protests in Oregon and Washington, etc.) Note that the areas with very high rates of legal gun ownership aren't the hotspots of gun violence [0]. Switzerland and several other Eurpean coun…

Personally I believe it’s about individualism vs the collective. Here in Sweden we’ve seen a horrible development regarding gun violence - easy to chalk up to “immigration” and “soft laws” but in my mind it’s a lot deeper - interesting enough this is at the same time we have a record amount of dollar millionaires in the country. We used to work as a collective but our economic policies are turning more and more neoli…

Just to make sure I understand you correctly: You think the strong trend toward more incidents of more extreme violence in Swedish society is because we have more dollar millionaires?

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#559

Post by romanoderoma »

djbebs wrote: post #268
romanoderoma wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU doesn't see free speech as a basic human right Of course it is, it's called freedom of opinion, simply some opinions are considered crimes by the EU law system. Removing a post that incites someone to commit suicide or to kill someone can save the poster from being prosecuted. That's it. Private communications are excempted though, unless they need to be used in a trial after a judge authorized it.

Try going to berlin waving a nazi flag and saying they should have killed more jews back then to see how that goes

I'm Italian, it's a crime here too, I don't have to go to Berlin to see how it goes, when my father's home was raided by Nazis and he had to run and hide in the woods where he lived for two years, till the end of the war

He was 4 years old.

If you read again what I wrote it's already there: free of opinion doesn't mean that all opinions are permitted, because some of them are crimes.

Anyway, if you know Berlin you should also know that there have been a spree of neo-nazi violence lately and the police is not doing much to stop it (I lived in Berlin for a few years)

https://www.dw.com/en/berlin-police-admits-failures-over-far...

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#560

Post by iso947 »

dane-pgp wrote: post #311
iso947 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They push a button on a screen, which is publicly recorded as a vote for, against, abstain or not present. Nowhere near superior systems like the U.K. where members leave te room, spend a couple of hours queuing to go into one of two rooms, and then see the result later in the day.

I assume you are being sarcastic and actually think that the UK's "analogue" system of voting is worse because it is slower. Let me assure you that making Westminster votes quicker is not the metric we should be optimising for. https://boingboing.net/2019/03/26/jfc-fml-jfc.html > But actually, a group of Swedish MEPs have revealed that they pressed the wrong button, and have asked to have the record corrected. They h…

Hilarious that people actually think “I pressed the wrong button” is a valid defence.

How thick are our representatives?

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