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Why is Kubernetes getting so popular?

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Re: Why is Kubernetes getting so popular?

#551

Post by kasey_junk »

banifo wrote: post #540
kasey_junk wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversely I think the trend of writing infrastructure as yaml may be the worst part of modern ops. It’s really hard to think of a worse language for this.

Why? We have plenty of yaml 'code' which is simple and does exactly what it needs to do. For all other usecases, there are plenty of alternatives, including libs for your preferred language. Most people use the yaml way because its easy and does exactly what it needs to do. Everyone else has plenty of well supported and well working alternatives.

Its typing is too weak. It’s block scoping is dangerous. References, classes and attachments are all pretty bad for reuse. Schemas are bolt on and there is no standard query language for it.

Re: Why is Kubernetes getting so popular?

#553

Post by lima »

verdverm wrote: post #453
acidity wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on this? We are just starting on Helm so curious to know your thoughts.

Sure, the most asinine thing (borrowing from Rob Pike) is to have a system where invisible characters define the scope and semantics of what you are writing. Now Helm takes this one step further (and I one beyond that before saying no more to myself and discovering https://cuelang.org ) and starts using text interpolation with helpers for managing indentation in this invisibly scoped language. I hacked in imports, bu…

Recently migrated my company's k8s product to Cue and it's pure bliss.

Configuration should be data, not code. Cue has just the right amount of expressivity - anything more complex shouldn't be done at the configuration layer, but in the application or a separate operator.

Re: Why is Kubernetes getting so popular?

#554

Post by nahname »

bradgessler wrote: post #341

I’ll take a shot. k8s is popular because Docker solved a real problem and Compose didn’t move fast enough to solve orchestration problem. It’s a second order effect; the important thing is Docker’s popularity. Before Docker there were a lot of different solutions for software developers to package up their web applications to run on a server. Docker kind of solved that problem: ops teams could theoretically take anyt…

>I do miss the days of ‘cap deploy’ for Rails apps.

Add operators, complicated deployment orchestration and more sophisticated infrastructure... It is hard to know if things are failing from a change I made or just because there are so many things changing all the time.

Re: Why is Kubernetes getting so popular?

#555

Post by tsss »

zelly wrote: post #394

Main benefits of Kubernetes: • Lets companies brag about having # many production services at any given time • Company saves money by not having to hire Linux sysadmins • Company saves money by not having to pay for managed cloud products if they don't want to • Declarative, version controlled, git-blameable deployments • Treating cloud providers like cattle not pets It's going to eat the world (already has?). I was…

If you really think that deploying a single binary is an alternative to microservices then you don't understand microservices.

Re: Why is Kubernetes getting so popular?

#556

Post by harpratap »

Aeolun wrote: post #342
nihil75 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had (have) discovery, auto-scaling and redundancy in PaaS. Most apps could run just fine in Cloud Foundry/App Engine/Beanstalk/Heroku. But the devs insist on MongoDB & Jenkins instead of using the cloud-provider solution and now you're back to defining VPCs, scaling policies, storage and whatnot.

Cloud foundry has been my best experience with enterprise cloud so far. The issue was mainly with the admins not provisioning enough capacity, but for us devs it was fucking magical.

Knative does exactly that. You can use your buildpacks and everything in Tekton and configure your application via Knative Services. No need to bother about anything else.

Re: Why is Kubernetes getting so popular?

#557

Post by tsss »

zelly wrote: post #529
rocho wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with the last paragraph. Your C++ example is orthogonal to the deployment aspect because it discusses the application. Kubernetes and the fragile shell scripts are about the deployment of said application. How are you going to deploy your C++ application? Both options are available, and I would wager that in most cases, Kubernetes makes more sense, unless you have strict requirements.

Kubernetes is for orchestrating a distributed system. What I was suggesting is to (1) make a monolith and (2) make it fast, light and high-throughput. The goal of your service is to reliably serve users at scale; this is just another way of doing it, just much more esoteric. A "C++ monolith" allows me to potentially bypass a lot of this deployment stuff because it could serve lots (millions) of users from a single bo…

> A "C++ monolith" allows me to potentially bypass a lot of this deployment stuff

No it doesn't. Let's assume you write that application as a C++ monolith. Congratulations, you now have source code that could potentially serve 10k users on a toaster... If only you could get it onto that toaster. How are you going to start the databases it needs? How are you going to restart it when it crashes, or worse: When it still runs but is unresponsive. How are you going to upgrade it to a new version without downtime? How are you going to do canary releases to catch bugs early in production without affecting all users? How do you roll back your infrastructure when there is an issue in production? How do you notice when your toaster server diverges from it's desired state? How do you handle authorization to be compliant with privacy regulations? I'd love to see that simple and safe shell script of yours which handles all those use cases. I'm sure you could sell it for quite a bit of money.

What you fail to understand is that k8s never was about efficiency. Your monolith may work at 10k users with a higher efficiency but it can never scale to a million. At some point you can't buy any bigger toasters and have no choice but to make a distributed system.

Besides, microservice vs monolith is orthogonal to using k8s.

Re: Why is Kubernetes getting so popular?

#558

Post by robert_g »

zelly wrote: post #394

Main benefits of Kubernetes: • Lets companies brag about having # many production services at any given time • Company saves money by not having to hire Linux sysadmins • Company saves money by not having to pay for managed cloud products if they don't want to • Declarative, version controlled, git-blameable deployments • Treating cloud providers like cattle not pets It's going to eat the world (already has?). I was…

I would speculate that for companies these two statements will be exclusive:

• Company saves money by not having to hire Linux sysadmins

• Company saves money by not having to pay for managed cloud products if they don't want to

As a developer I want to right code, not manage a Kubernetes installation. If my employer wants the most value from my expertice they will either pay for a hosted environment to minimize my time managing it or hire dedicated staff to maintain an environment.

Re: Why is Kubernetes getting so popular?

#559

Post by roystonvassey »

tutfbhuf wrote: post #469
pwdisswordfish2 wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am ready! NetBSD is running on the toaster. I think haproxy can do 10K req/s. tcpserver on the backends. I only write robust shell scripts, short and portable. As a spectator, not a tech worker who uses these popular solutions, I would say there seems to be a great affinity amongst in the tech industry for anything that is (relatively) complex. Either that, or the only solutions people today can come up with are co…

I can see your point for small hobby projects. But enterprise web development in C++ is no fun at all. For example: "Google says that about 70% of all serious security bugs in the Chrome codebase are related to memory management and safety." https://www.zdnet.com/article/chrome-70-of-all-security-bugs... Developer time for fixing these bugs is in most cases more expensive, than to throw more hardware at your software…

Additionally, for larger eneterprises, the operational overhead quickly grows and slows down new app development, if one is tied to a traditional server approach.

Within our teams, we’ve found we can do with an (even) higher level of abstraction by running apps directly on PaaS setups. We found this sufficient for most of our use-cases in data products.

Re: Why is Kubernetes getting so popular?

#560

Post by jordic »

wolco wrote: post #225
silviogutierrez wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading this charitably: I guess I agree. k8s is definitely overpowered for my needs. And I'm almost certain my blog or my business will never need that full power. Fully aware of that. But I'm not sure one can find something of "the right power" that has the same support from cloud providers, the open source community, the critical mass, etc. [1] Eventually, a standard "simplified" abstraction over k8s will emerge.…

Curious why run it at all? The cost must be 10 times more this way. It is mostly for the fun of learning. I come from the opposite approach. I have 4 servers two digital ocean $5 and two vulr $2.50 instances. One holds the db. One server as the frontend/code. One server to do heavy work and another to server a heavy site and holds backups. For $15 I'm hosting hundreds of sites, running so many background processes. I…

Do you manage to aggregate all logs on a single place? Do you have the same environment as staging? How do you upgrade your servers? Do you have multiple teams deploying on their own components? Do you have a monitoring/metric service? How do you query the results of a Cron? Can you rollback to the correct version when you detect an error at production?
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