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The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

jarednelsen.dev

551–560 of 851 posts

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've read, Google is a much more humane and pleasant environment to develop software in.

That's what I hear, but then I see comments from folks like User5283 above. I have the impression it may be changing into something much more similar to a typical corporation after years of avoiding that fate.

Beware though, that he or she used a throwaway. Comments can be made by anyone, also a marketing company contracted by oracle who still want talent and have to shame competitors with better image.

(but the comment did seem legit and it is obvious for posting that anonymous)

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#552
This only gets worse when you’re old enough to go in, sit in a room across two or three people and realize you have at least as much experience as all of them _combined_ - not necessarily in terms churning out of code in the language _du jour_ or their domain specifics, but in terms of people management and systems design.

There are multiple kinds of dysfunction at work here:

- When I was looking for purely technical gigs I breezed through phone screens and automated testing only to go up against the ageism wall on the first Skype call. Period.

- Recruiters reproducibly drop out of the blue without a clue as to what you actually do or your experience level. Adding “Senior” to my LinkedIn profile measurably decreased the amount of randos that reach out on a weekly basis.

- Puzzle-based screenings are a complete waste of time. It’s not about the prep, it’s about the likelihood you’ll ever encounter those problems. People are much more likely to have to address system design problems, but those cannot be tested for by the online questionnaire cottage industry, so you get mediocre engineers who know how to write fizzbuzz but have zero clue of how to design an order management system from scratch or where to look for issues in an old one.

- Companies often don’t understand what is involved in the roles they hire for--even if you’re a perfect match for the job description (if there is one), the hiring team has an agenda that seldom matches it.

- Engineering is not just about writing code. The second you start asking questions about how teams interact or if they have a strategy for X, the people in the room (or call) are seldom the ones that can get past canned replies.

- Startups tend to be extremely picky and hype-driven. The language _du jour_, their “triple mocha with a squeeze of raspberry” Agile flavor or someone’s pet organizational methodology (teams/tribes/packs/etc.) usually feature prominently in senior interviews, but even VPs _very seldom_ talk about how they manage people--just product and investors.

As a result, I’ve long stopped applying to “normal” engineering positions (and even senior management ones at startups). I drop out of the process (politely) as soon as I get the first hint of automated tests, ageism or VC hype, and prefer networking and getting to know the culture first.

Even so, I’ve had a few notorious duds--I would talk to a VP, have a great conversation, and then have “peer” discussions with people half my age that might as well have lived inside a bubble (and had obvious gaps in empathy and emotional intelligence), or simply have an “OK, boomer” moment whenever the conversation steered into how they managed people growth or I commented on their org structure.

Or I would go through the _whole_ thing and then be told that they wanted someone at “a different career stage”, even though you ticked all the boxes, talked to around a dozen people, and gotten consistently excellent feedback (that one smarted a bit, because it was in a very niche field I was particularly good at).

My key takeaway is that “vanilla” engineering jobs are most often not seen as being long-term hires that bring in outside experience: they are fresh cogs for an internal hype-driven, Rube Goldberg-like contraption that many tech companies cling to and want to preserve at any cost, and the hiring process (and lack of care in it) mirrors that.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#553
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience as both a 50+ hiring manager and as a candidate tells me that we are collectively living in an illusion of whacked up expectations. Yes, it's super hard to hire good people, but most of the time it's because "good enough" isn't good enough anymore, and while we may think our company is a 9 and we deserve 9s, we are probably more of a 4 based on what people are actually working on. Yes, interviews suck,…

> we are collectively living in an illusion of whacked up expectations. Yes, it's super hard to hire good people, but most of the time it's because "good enough" isn't good enough anymore, and while we may think our company is a 9 and we deserve 9s, we are probably more of a 4 based on what people are actually working on. You're essentially implying that companies like FAANG can get by just fine, even if they hired "…

> companies are far too greedy to pay people 200k a year, unless they really need to

Maybe the high salary is to compensate for something else (poor work environment, boring job, etc) rather than attract very skilled people?

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#554
post #510
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people complaining are usually the ones who can't just prep for algorithmic interviews with a couple hours a day of effort for a month. Which makes the algorithmic interview a relatively good filter - ability to learn something difficult quickly is a very important skill at high performance software companies.

Speaking as a parent, the idea of having “a couple hours of free time per day for a month” to learn difficult new material is laughable, and it has nothing to do with intellectual ability.

I don't know. Even after working at a FAANG, having a toddler, having a robust social life, I spend at least 10 hours a week learning new stuff.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it general and polished enough to get traction though? What’s its name?

etcd didn’t work initially; I wouldn’t call it polished. https://aphyr.com/posts/316-call-me-maybe-etcd-and-consul

It worked, it had a bug.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#556

When my classmates were preparing interview coding questions, I was working on a mini TCP implementation and a toy kernel. AWS rejected me since I failed to write prefect code to traverse a tree in level order. Google did not even give me an interview since I told the campus recruiter I have not prepared for the coding questions. Then I ended up with an internship at CoreOS and created etcd. I am glad that they did n…

> Can you regurgitate the answer to this already solved problem?

No, but I can write a storage solution that works even when your dummy engineers are actively melting down servers.

Ah, the difference between "computer science" and "software engineering".

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#557
After 15 years, patents, open source, and repeats successes it hasn't gotten better. I got into this because I loved it so much... I feel asked to be a hyper energetic, extroverted ego case and really I just want to be humble and quietly write some code I can feel proud of that does something useful with some kind people.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#558
All this discussion is spot on. The problem is all these startups now think they are FAANG companies also. You're not Google dude and you're probabaly passing on great hires and making the hiring process harder on everyone.

We recently did a bunch of hiring. Our coding excersize was practical and involved working through some existing code that had a bug and extending it. They had to be able to state the problem back to us clearly. It was take home solutions submitted to git. It was simple to weed through candidates looking at the code for 30 secs. We looked for things like clean code and well thought out solutions. We didn't do the silly BigO optimization stuff that every company is obsessed with. We've been very happy with our hires.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#559

Comedian Daniel Tosh had a bit about people that claimed to be smart, it's just that they were just bad at taking tests. He said, "oh, so you struggle with the part where we find out what you actually know?" I hear a lot of complaints about the "typical" software engineering hiring process, and it usually comes from the people that don't do well within the current system. Could the process be improved? Almost certain…

I’m a senior engineer with 20 years experience, I just delivered kubernetes into production at a Fortune 500 company. We wrote our own provisioner in go and our own controllers and built a system to manage add-ons. I know pretty much everything about running a cluster and have knowledge of most of the popular tools you’d install on a cluster.

I applied for a job at a Silicon Valley company to work on their kubernetes team. They talked to me for five minutes about anything related to my current job and spent 2 hours asking me to solve algo questions from cracking the coding interview. The experience was so bad that I basically am refusing to do any more interviews that require coding.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#560

When my classmates were preparing interview coding questions, I was working on a mini TCP implementation and a toy kernel. AWS rejected me since I failed to write prefect code to traverse a tree in level order. Google did not even give me an interview since I told the campus recruiter I have not prepared for the coding questions. Then I ended up with an internship at CoreOS and created etcd. I am glad that they did n…

You've got to admire this well lubricated machine, they are getting the milk and didn't have to pay for the cow.

They are happy. You are happy.

People are jumping higher and higher hoops with a smile.

Everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.

Hopefully as a wiser person you have your contingency ready for when the machine come to collect its blood tribute.

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