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Python Is Eating the World

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Re: Python Is Eating the World

#551

Post by mark_l_watson »

icebraining wrote: post #334
marmada wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python is uniquely ill-suited for dependency management compared to many other languages. For some reason dependencies are installed into the interpreter itself (I know what I just said is very imprecise/inaccurate but I think it gets the point across). In JS, which also has a single interpreter installed across the system (or multiple if you use nvm), the packages aren't installed "directly" into the interpreter, wh…

Not trying to defend Python, but it's not hard to make it work like JS without virtualenv: pip install -r requirements.txt --target=python_modules Then to run: PYTHONPATH=python_modules python myscript.py This will keep all the dependencies in the local "python_modules" directory. I've used this on a custom SaaS platform, and it worked quite well.

Thanks for that! I am tired of messing with conda, virtualenv, etc. and since I use simple Makefiles to build and run most of my code, I can easily stick with the standard latest stable version Python installation when using your trick.

EDIT: a question: when I have to use Python, I like to break up my code into small libraries and make wheel files for my own use. How do you handle your own libraries? Do you have one special local directory that you build wheel files to and then reference that library in your requirements.txt files?

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#552

Post by bart_spoon »

xxxpupugo wrote: post #251
KirinDave wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is a language, better than MatLab/R/SPSS, which come before it. I don't think so. I think R is a lot more expressive and not really any harder to read. It might have a steeper learning curve, but it's not so bad that I think that actually matters.

I think R is a much worse programming language, like 1 indexing, very unintuitive string manipulation, dataframe being the magic facade that hides complexity, etc. I would choose Python any day if the other option is R.

If you are a computer scientist doing a little data science, then R is awful for the reasons you detailed. If your function entirely consists of data science, then R is a fantastic language for the same reasons you hate it.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#553

Post by feanaro »

pvg wrote: post #487
CogitoCogito wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you think that? Because it's a fact? With cpython you can develop things in python if that suits you or C if that suits you. You have more freedom to choose what fits your use case. I'm not saying this is necessarily good, but I don't think it's obviously bad. I'd like to hear from people who think it's the case. > Languages/runtimes with high C integration and fairly exposed C bowels like Python and Ruby ha…

I guess I don't understand how 'the design gets stuck in amber' (which you seem to agree with) and 'gives you lots of design degrees of freedom' can be true at the same time.

It gives you flexibility in writing libraries while making it harder to design a new compatible runtime. That said, PyPy has achieved pretty good C extension support while making the language faster.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#554

Post by tyingq »

m45t3r wrote: post #530
w8rbt wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slightly wrong. Here's the original: "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." Bjarne Stroustrup's FAQ: Did you really say that?. Retrieved on 2007-11-15.

This is spot on. In my current workplace we use Clojure, and Clojure has many of the same problems in package management as Python does (no lockfile, no easy way to create reproducible builds, no way to declare range of dependencies unless you use version pin, etc. etc.). However, I never saw any complaints about Clojure package management in any topic about Clojure here.

Maybe because Clojure has a much smaller total number of possible dependencies? That is, "just as bad theoretically, but easier to wrangle by hand".

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#555

Post by empath75 »

Ensorceled wrote: post #436

Holy Crap! What a lot of irrational, hyperbolic hate for Python. I think everybody should spend their first couple of years working in Fortran IV on IBM TSO/ISPF. No dependency management because you had to write everything yourself. Or maybe [edit: early 90's] C or C++ development where dependency management meant getting packages off a Usenet archive, uudecoding and compiling them yourself after tweaking the config…

I love python as a scratch pad for playing around with code, but I don’t think I would put anything into production written in it. It’s just too hard to debug and maintain and deploy once it gets to even a medium amount of complexity.

Interactive python and Jupiter notebooks are an absolute joy to work with though.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#556

Post by tyingq »

botto wrote: post #471
Ensorceled wrote: post #436

Holy Crap! What a lot of irrational, hyperbolic hate for Python. I think everybody should spend their first couple of years working in Fortran IV on IBM TSO/ISPF. No dependency management because you had to write everything yourself. Or maybe [edit: early 90's] C or C++ development where dependency management meant getting packages off a Usenet archive, uudecoding and compiling them yourself after tweaking the config…

Isn't it also just as much about Python is having it's day, granted a day long in the waiting but many langs go through this (Ruby, PHP) and then it tapers off and the next language has it's day. Probably Go will be the next hotness in 5 years.

I'm sort of wondering if there might be a PHP resurgence. Things have gotten much better recently. The historical warts are easier to avoid now.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#557

Post by mark_l_watson »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #87
hyperpallium wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a model dependency management system for some other language that addresses all these issues? Dependency hell is everywhere.

Does it have to be? I have found that I would rather code my own versions of some libraries so I have control over it. Even if there is some extra long term maintenance and some up front dev costs, it's paid off already a number of times.

A little off topic, but this is why I really like a Common Lisp with Quicklisp: library dependencies are stored in a convenient location locally and the libraries I write can be treated the same way (with a trivial config change to add Quicklisp load paths to my own library project directories).

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#558

Post by momentoftop »

9q9 wrote: post #501
momentoftop wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No data as such. But here's the first example in the "batteries included" list library: let modify_opt a f l = let rec aux p = function | [] -> (match f None with | None -> raise Exit | Some v -> rev ((a,v)::p)) | (a',b)::t when a' = a -> (match f (Some b) with | None -> rev_append p t | Some b' -> rev_append ((a,b')::p) t) | p'::t -> aux (p'::p) t in try aux [] l with Exit -> l Here, the Exit exception is being rais…

Thanks. That's, as you say, a statically scoped fast exit. One does not need the full power of exceptions for this (exceptions'd dynamic binding comes with a cost). If exceptions are widely used for this purpose, one might consider adding a nicely structured goto to the language. Something like linear delimited continuations?

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were after. Ocaml exceptions are used more generally, and often make use of 2.

For instance, the basic stream/iterator in Ocaml is Enum, which always uses an exception to signal when the stream has been exhausted, rather than providing a "has_next" predicate.

The catch site of this exception is dynamic.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#559

Post by goto11 »

pjmlp wrote: post #453
goto11 wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tell that to accounting Are you suggesting that accounting only cares about the AWS bill but not at all about the salary of developers?

A developer using an AOT compiled language can still earn the same salary.

Not all languages are equally productive though.

Re: Python Is Eating the World

#560

Post by ad404b8a372f2b9 »

j88439h84 wrote: post #64
blaisio wrote: post #33

Python has a lot of problems that really slow down development, but they are all fixable. The biggest issue, in my opinion, is in dependency management. Python has a horrible dependency management system, from top-to-bottom. Why do I need to make a "virtual environment" to have separate dependencies, and then source it my shell? Why do I need to manually add version numbers to a file? Why isn't there any builtin way…

The solution to this is Poetry. https://poetry.eustace.io It's good. Projects should use it.

Could you give some details as to why it's better than other more commonly used tools (pip, venv, ...)?

Looking at the home page it's not immediately obvious to me. For example, the lock file it creates seems to be the equivalent of writing `pip freeze` to the requirements file. I see a quick mention of isolation at the end, it seems to use virtual environments, does it make it more seamless? What's the advantage over using virtualenv for example?

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