Earlier quoted context omitted.
Mass famine, economic collapse, war, and ultimately the collapse of industrial civilization: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-...
This isn't scientific, it's speculation. People have speculated the world will end "soon" for millennia. Is there anything new to add?
France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall
551–560 of 578 posts
Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall
#552Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm ok with taxing flights if we also tax pretty much everything else for the environmental externalities of it. My problem is when countries/politicians/ordinary people choose one or two items that don't fully affect them and try to lecture others about it. (not saying it is your case, just in general). And for my case, it is about 4 flights a week (both ways * 2). It may not be much, but is an extra 25 euros per mo…
> Will this make me stop flying? Not really, but I will be pretty sour about it so I don't see how it offsets anything Someone else who flies just as much as you and could make an effort not to will also feel sour about it and maybe make an effort to change the situation. Maybe that person can save up and buy a home someplace else, or wake up earlier to take the train to wherever that person is going.
I just see this as the French government adding an extra tax to deal with their own budget issues. (which is ok, but lets call it that, and not an offset or 'incentive' tax, like it will actually change anything for the environment)
Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall
#553Earlier quoted context omitted.
Replacements don’t exist. Those old prop liners can operate off unimproved dirt strips, grass, even snow and ice - and off short runways too. Jets don’t like that. For back country missions the only thing maybe better than a DC-3 is a Basler... and that is a modernized DC-3 with reinforcements and turboprops for more power. They suck a lot more fuel than a plain DC3 though, which can be problematic as some of these f…
A C130 should be a viable modern alternative for those use cases, if economic
Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall
#554Earlier quoted context omitted.
They're probably trying to make sure they don't charge so much that flying out of France becomes more expensive than some nearby city in a bordering country. But even so, these taxes are very, very low. Honestly, I wouldn't mind paying 10 Euros on a flight if I knew it was helping rail systems. It's cheaper than the stupid "convenience fee" that I have to pay for concert tickets.
Convenience fees are just immoral. I wonder if this means flying out of the French side of Geneva airport would incur the fee while the Swiss side would not? (Edit, it seems like the French side no longer exists after Switzerland entered the Schengen).
If it's the former, it's still lousy because they're advertising lower prices than what the actual cost is.
But even so, it's still not much different from retail stores charging sales tax. Personally, I think it should be illegal to charge sales tax after-the-fact. The price advertised should be the price you pay, period. In Europe, this is exactly how it is: whatever price you see advertised is what you pay, and that's all. There's taxes (15% VAT I think, so not trivial), but they're built into the price, and they're not allowed to advertise the pre-tax price. This is exactly how it should be.
Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall
#555Earlier quoted context omitted.
International Air Travel is one of the most heavily taxed, if not the most heavily taxed, activity. It's not unusual for the taxes to exceed the ticket price. Here I just looked on kayak for a flight from SFO to Berlin. Here is the price breakdown: Ticket price USD 465.00 Taxes, Fees and charges USD 540.52 --------- International/Domestic Surcharge USD 350.00 APHIS User Fee USD 3.96 Immigration User Fee USD 7.00 Cust…
How come one pays arrival tax in the US even though the plane is heading to Germany?
Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall
#556Earlier quoted context omitted.
Take-off and landing account for a lot more pollution than a flight in cruising altitude on long trips. That's why we usually talk about the problematic domestic flights where trains are an alternative. There's not really a good alternative for long haul flights. Flights within Europe are not that heavily taxed, otherwise I wouldn't be able to fly Berlin - Brussels for 9 Euros.
Yes, the huge taxes are generally for international flights, and I think part of the reason is that, as you say, there aren't a lot of options for those flights so they have a captive market and are thus better able to bear those taxes. If you start with punitive taxes on domestic flights in the EU, it will disproportionately hit the airline industry there. As with many things, the game with taxes is how to make the…
Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall
#557Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry but i have never heard a small government person think there should be airplane subsidies in my life.
Many Republicans are in favor of subsidies of industries like Boeing when they are in their district. I expect they would describe themselves as believers in small government. And let's not resort to the No True Scotsman fallacy ...
Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall
#558Earlier quoted context omitted.
> They're regressive, and ignore the fact that regular people are being badly hurt by them whereas the rich won't even feel it. how many people actually need to fly outside of traveling for work? in America, a high tax on gasoline would actually be devastating to the livelihood of a lot of poor citizens. being priced out of frequent air travel doesn't sound like a massive hardship.
I am in Europe. Travel between Porto and Faro (Portugal) by train is 5 hours versus 50 minutes by plane (ok, plus one for security) and 2-5 times as expensive. During the last 2 years I was doing this flight pretty much twice a week. It was the only way I could spend time with my kid, but still keep my job and work to support him. I also travel for work longer distances (NY, San Francisco and all over Europe) once or…
That's exactly the problem: Porto to Faro for should have a better train connectivity, that will emit 10x less CO2, should take not more than 3 hours and should be much cheaper than taking a plane.
Why can't we have good things?
Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall
#559I don't really understand what the purpose of this tax is. There's no alternative to burning fuel by energy density on an airline, so why go after flights? What do they expect them to do? If you're taxing petrol cars you'd expect electric cars to become more economically viable. Either way I disagree with carbon taxes. They're regressive, and ignore the fact that regular people are being badly hurt by them whereas th…
And that isn't that big of a problem. We have many alternatives to flying, e.g. a high-speed rail system that has a 10x smaller impact. Of course you want to steer consumers towards that with incentives like these.
Earnings from these taxes don't just disappear in a black hole. They're redistributed. Perhaps to make train travel cheaper and more economically viable. Perhaps electric cars. Given the socioeconomic groups that most frequently use public transport vs air travel, this tax seems progressive, not regressive, if anything.
And that's only one alternative to flying: other forms of travel. Another is simply not travelling at all. There's a reason people don't choose to live 20 hours away from work, or choose to have a daily hobby in another country, or choose to visit friends across the world on a daily basis, because there's a cost to travel. A cost that is too high. And that's okay. Not all travel has to happen, not all travel is important enough to pay the cost.
May seem silly, but if we could teleport around the world for $1, with hypothetically insane costs to the environment, you'd have massive amounts of unnecessary travel. And the right response would be as a society that we could do without much of this unnecessary travel entirely, replace it with viable alternatives to proximity like a phonecall, a skype call, a text message, a picture etc. And we can do this by making it more expensive, and using that money to make low-impact alternatives (relatively) cheaper.
If you know that as a society we're destroying our environment and the current cost of doing so is too cheap, or the destruction is not factored in to the price, the most reasonable solution is to increase the cost.
Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall
#560Earlier quoted context omitted.
It covers fuel on board and fuel leaving the country.
My naive reading is that it prohibits double taxing (taxing fuel already purchased). Are you saying that when fuel my aircraft they ask the destination so they can gauge the tax?