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Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

nytimes.com

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Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#551

Post by toufiqbarhamov »

bunderbunder wrote: post #417
coffeemug wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. People keep saying this and repeating it, but as far as I can tell this meme is destructive and wrong. Freedom of speech isn't just a legal assurance that congress shall make no law abridging it. It is also a set of cultural norms rooted deeply in a long lineage of hard won ideas. It is Evelyn Hall's principle "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the de…

It's interesting how this gets framed differently nowadays. 20 years ago, before social media, there was no assumption that everyone has a fundamental right to be able to broadcast their ideas using others' platforms. Since publication was more resource-intensive, the default for most media was to not publish things, and deciding that someone's ideas didn't merit publication wasn't seen as a violation of any great mo…

It’s interesting, and weird when you consider that the people who seem to be railing against this supposed censorship share significant overlap in the Venn diagram of people who complain about a growing sense of entitlement among others. Ironically at some point these same people decided that they deserve to be published wherever they want, and anything else is censorship. Presumably these are people who felt even harder done by when newspapers, magazines, and book publishers refused to give them full print runs too.

Honestly though, I have another theory. There is no sense of entitlement or hypocrisy, no confusion about what is or isn’t censorship. What we’re seeing is almost purely calculated, and just about trying to get a bigger audience. Twenty years ago if you wanted to publish your ideas about the queen of England being a lizard, you had to either self-publish, rant to a crowd, print fliers, or get lucky. Not that long ago blogs and forums were a huge improvement for those people, and it’s still very effective, but less effective than Facebook or Twitter or YouTube.

So do they really think that having the ability to self publish to the planet through blogs and modern self-publishing doesn’t count as speech? Or... do they just want more, and realize that position of “I want more” is less appealing than “I fight censorship!” It’s not that they don’t get it, it’s that it’s inconvenient to admit it?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#552

Post by Fins »

zamalek wrote: post #120
orthecreedence wrote: post #33

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…

The problem with the Paradox of Tolerance is that while in theory it is quite correct and rather profound, in practice it's often an explanation trotted out by those in power to silence those they do not like.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#553

Post by afuchs »

orthecreedence wrote: post #487
fzeroracer wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered that we see the growing use of Nazi lingo because the amount of violence being committed by neo-nazis is rising? You can say 'believe whatever you want', but what we've clearly seen is that belief turning into action. This in turn is why platforms are taking action against them.

> Have you considered that we see the growing use of Nazi lingo because the amount of violence being committed by neo-nazis is rising? I think the rise in calling other people Nazis is more a symptom of political polarization than of a resurgence of violent national socialist gangs. To that end, I think the media itself is vastly more culpable than r/the_donald or gab. Are they organizing and rallying more? Yeah, it…

There has been a large increase in hate crimes in the United States in the last few years.

The issue of censorship is deeply nuanced (i.e. the paradox of tolerance).

On one hand, there is the problem of "what if the tables are flipped," and how different marginalized groups are treated.

Unfortunately, giving fringe viewpoints platforms and openly debating them actually encourages people to support those viewpoints despite any factual evidence against them. People with fringe viewpoints know this and will often, disingenuously, seek to publicize their views through open debate so they can convert other people into supporters.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#554

Post by entwife »

With Internet Banking, is easy to have a check sent to individual or organization one wants to support on an annual or semi annual basis, which has the same effect as $1-5/month.

Patreon is useful to discover new content. I imagine it is convenient for the "creator". But, not being on Patreon doesn't prevent a person from gathering support for their cause. It only prevents Patreon from advertising causes, which is Patreon's right.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#555

Post by slededit »

notafraudster wrote: post #550
slededit wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Referencing McCarthy’s “friendly” networks and TV shows misses the point. “Disgusting” viewpoints can today be had on Drudge Report and numerous other places friendly to that viewpoint. Murrow had spent much of the previous year criticizing McCarthy’s attacks on freedom of speech and association. The equivalent today would be Rachel Maddow giving an entire episode to Trump to do with as he wished. Murrow did not have…

It may well have been that I've missed your point. Can you make your point a little clearer. In the subject being discussed, the two actors are Patreon and far-right commentators. In the metaphor, presumably Murrow stands in for Patreon, and McCarthy stands in for contemporary far-right commentators. What I presumed to be your point is that a commitment to pluralism, as manifested by Murrow giving McCarthy a platform…

This is in direct reference to the line:

> If you wanted a real audience, even in older times you would've needed a newspaper to print your thoughts, or a publisher to help with your books.

The point is that getting this "help" was much easier in the past. Even people who vehemently disagreed with you would share their platform.

Circling back to Patreon, today's norms are qualitatively different from when our rules of "private platforms" were developed. If a significant portion of publishing platforms retained open minds then it was OK to have others that chose not to. Regulation was not required.

Now that this norm of fairness has been lost if we want to retain open communication of ideas on the internet then we must bring back the notion of a common carrier. Referencing the fact that the rules are the same as the past ignores how the world has changed around us.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#556

Post by krapp »

Fins wrote: post #552
zamalek wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…

The problem with the Paradox of Tolerance is that while in theory it is quite correct and rather profound, in practice it's often an explanation trotted out by those in power to silence those they do not like.

Can you give examples of this in practice where those being "silenced" weren't expressing intolerant views?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#557

Post by toufiqbarhamov »

unethical_ban wrote: post #456
bunderbunder wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting how this gets framed differently nowadays. 20 years ago, before social media, there was no assumption that everyone has a fundamental right to be able to broadcast their ideas using others' platforms. Since publication was more resource-intensive, the default for most media was to not publish things, and deciding that someone's ideas didn't merit publication wasn't seen as a violation of any great mo…

Ooo, I can link to my blog for relevance: https://wannabewonk.com/gab-and-free-speech-on-the-internet/ Summary: I agree, largely. Socially, we should be able to debate people with diverse opinions without turning the world into one big safe space. As far as the rights of hosting platforms: There has to be a line somewhere. I draw the line at CAs, ISPs and registrars. They should have to serve ANYONE unless the govern…

This is a great line to draw, similar to a phone company not getting to choose to carry me based on the content of my conversations, but a party line has no legal or moral burden to have me.

And yes, I realize how massively outdated that example was.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#558

Post by RangerScience »

orthecreedence wrote: post #33

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live?

I think you're asking a good question but I think that because Patreon uses a very human-centric process that starts with "hey, let's have a conversation", it may not be the right place to ask it.

If you are unwilling to have a conversation with your platform, you probably have a problem.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#559

Post by Wistar »

bunderbunder wrote: post #438
coffeemug wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just made an argument about that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18765494 , and here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18765509 . > The difference is that the internet has discontinuously more scalable network effects, so technology companies often find themselves in a winner-takes-all dynamic. If some publisher, newspaper, or literary magazine refused to publish Walt Whitman, he could always try and…

The fact that Twitter is way more popular than Mastodon doesn't really change anything. It's freedom of speech , not freedom of venue.

Or, freedom of speech, not freedom of reach.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#560

Post by SolaceQuantum »

icebraining wrote: post #537
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the answer is yes, in that no one is forced to read spam or flyers.

kristofferR wrote " can hear you" not "wants to hear you".

Yes, and by being limited to local flyers, the vast majority of America cannot hear your speech.
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