Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#551

Post by flyingfences » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:56 AM UTC

l8again wrote: post #485

I would never work for this asshole. I have not granted any one the privilege of being disrespectful to me. No, no one has my permission to be unprofessional and/or disrespectful towards me, no matter the cost. Everything else is fair game. To be clear, I have had a fair amount of criticism on my work by all kinds of people (and most of them I deeply respect and consider my mentors).

Well it's a good thing that contributing to FOSS is entirely voluntary, then, isn't it? Ain't it grand that there's no supreme overlord telling you to which repos you must submit PRs? Total miracle, right? Wait, no, it's only your natural right to make voluntary associations.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#552

Post by jjeaff » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:56 AM UTC

hyperpallium wrote: post #540

JohnBooty wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating "agreeable and lax" and "rude but firm" (as a sweeping generality) Consider this: A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not "rude." This is called charisma. - "Agreeable and lax"... you allow them to paint the…

> people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. Like Linus.

Is anyone really rallied to the cause by Linus himself? I think the product is the only real draw. With the exception of a select few that simply want to work with someone as high profile and legendary as Linus.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#553

Post by JohnBooty » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:57 AM UTC

hyperpallium wrote: post #540

JohnBooty wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating "agreeable and lax" and "rude but firm" (as a sweeping generality) Consider this: A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not "rude." This is called charisma. - "Agreeable and lax"... you allow them to paint the…

> people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. Like Linus.

Certainly he has done far, far, far more good than bad. I don't think anybody feels otherwise. I would say he's something of a hero to me!

He has certainly rallied many to his cause.

As much good as he has done, could he do some things better? Linus certainly feels so. Interesting that so many here seem doubt Linus' own assertion.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#554

Post by coffeemug » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:58 AM UTC

mattdeboard wrote: post #538

coffeemug wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…

Ok, can I just ask, what do you think people are lying about when they’re being diplomatic about criticism? You said being diplomatic is a “tiny form of a white lie”, so I’m wondering who you think is being deceived, and what you think they are they being deceived about.

When you think a specific thought, feel a specific feeling, but express it in a way that really doesn't feel true to you deep in your core, you're deceiving the other person about who you are. That's how many relationships fall apart. You tell each other tiny white lies, and five years later you've discovered the lies have compounded and the relationship is too poisoned to recover. The same thing happens to cultures at scale.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#555

Post by ec109685 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 2:00 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #519

tptacek wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not just stubborn, persistent, and unyielding: he's performatively so. In his most notorious attacks, he's clearly playing to an audience. That could be the problem. He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") from the performative rudeness ("SHUT THE FUCK UP MAURO"). (I mean, to be clear: what the fuck do I know? I've never been in the position Linus is in.)

> He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") For what it's worth, he doesn't even avoid breaking userland. Off the top of my head, we had a problem at work a few months back where kernel 4.3 and below rounded up listen(fd, 0) to something nonzero, kernel 4.4 didn't, and a piece of commercial software was (inexplicably) using listen(fd, 0). https://ldpreload.com/blog/git-bisect…

I read it as he didn’t think anything relied on those semantics and it turned out that was incorrect.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#556

Post by flubert » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 2:00 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #519

tptacek wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not just stubborn, persistent, and unyielding: he's performatively so. In his most notorious attacks, he's clearly playing to an audience. That could be the problem. He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") from the performative rudeness ("SHUT THE FUCK UP MAURO"). (I mean, to be clear: what the fuck do I know? I've never been in the position Linus is in.)

> He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") For what it's worth, he doesn't even avoid breaking userland. Off the top of my head, we had a problem at work a few months back where kernel 4.3 and below rounded up listen(fd, 0) to something nonzero, kernel 4.4 didn't, and a piece of commercial software was (inexplicably) using listen(fd, 0). https://ldpreload.com/blog/git-bisect…

Is there an idiomatic phrase for the opposite of "damning with faint praise"? Praising through faint damnation? Maybe the "exception that proves the rule"?

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#557

Post by motohagiography » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 2:03 AM UTC

I hope for the sake of the stability of the ecosystem he doesn't apologise again. It's one thing to just change, and another to make a public gesture to seek out approval on weak terms.

As soon as it becomes about other people forgiving him, they will just pile on because it elevates them.

Good on him for recognizing what got him here isn't the tool to get him and the kernel where he needs to go. But that should be it.

Anything more invites a coup and hyper politicized governance of what is now a core internet technology.

I hope he draws a line under this and moves forward instead of being co-opted by a committee.

"I did that, and now I don't anymore, here is what we're doing next," is far better than, "I am afraid of some consequences of things I did in the past and I want your permission to continue." For a leader, the latter is death.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#558

Post by hueving » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 2:04 AM UTC

idontpost wrote: post #509

hnzix wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was forced to take a unit of postmodernism as part of my studies and came away no wiser as to what postmodernism actually is. There was a bunch of dense, impenetrable academic word games that seemed to be asserting that all truth is culturally relative. I don't find gravity or physics to be culturally relative.

Modernism is Descartes` "I will find a single indisputable axiom and can prove everything knowable from there." His axiom? "Cogito ergo sum." Postmodernism is rooted in the notion that there is no indisputable base axiom from which we can build our understanding of the world. It's unprovable assumptions all the way down. The consequences for this, if you accept it (you don't have to, but you're going to have a hell o…

If you subscribe to postmodernism then there is no such thing as an 'irrational' claim. All of the observations and logic another person may be using to make the claim are all equally likely to be valid/invalid and claiming otherwise is just forcing your opinions of truth on them.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#559

Post by coffeemug » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 2:08 AM UTC

jancsika wrote: post #487

coffeemug wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…

> For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. What is no longer acceptable is to personally insult a developer for breaking things, poorly designing an API/implementation, etc. By "personally insult" I mean call someone names, curse at them, sarcastically suggest they should have been a…

> call someone names, curse at them, sarcastically suggest they should have been aborted, and many other such tactics.

That's a positive change. But it also ought to be possible to say "this is a dumb idea" or to engage in friendly ribbing when someone does something dumb. These are good, healthy mechanisms in normal groups of people. Eliminate all teasing, and everyone is friendly on the outside and bitter and resentful on the inside. People should be teased for breaking things. There is such a thing as attempting to be too professional.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#560

Post by 2muchcoffeeman » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 2:09 AM UTC

idontpost wrote: post #509

hnzix wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was forced to take a unit of postmodernism as part of my studies and came away no wiser as to what postmodernism actually is. There was a bunch of dense, impenetrable academic word games that seemed to be asserting that all truth is culturally relative. I don't find gravity or physics to be culturally relative.

Modernism is Descartes` "I will find a single indisputable axiom and can prove everything knowable from there." His axiom? "Cogito ergo sum." Postmodernism is rooted in the notion that there is no indisputable base axiom from which we can build our understanding of the world. It's unprovable assumptions all the way down. The consequences for this, if you accept it (you don't have to, but you're going to have a hell o…

In the sciences we tend to start from the assumption that what we measure is real. As a practical matter, that's fine, but there is no sound rational basis for that assumption. It's an unprovable assumption.

Can you show that what we measure is not real? If you can’t prove anything one way or the other, who cares? Why even bother with this line of thinking?