James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#551

Post by wellboy » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 8:50 PM UTC

bertil wrote: post #526

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

There are many companies with very opinionated managers who are hiring developers: Breitbart as a large website comes to mind, so do some libertarian cryptocurrency companies. His reputation probably limits his research but I can see how his fame might convince some people to reach out to him at the same time. I was once identified as a chartered statistician, presumably sympathetic, by a fringe group (fun people col…

He can get a job in any republican state, people will probably silently agree about the things he said, or the media painted him to have said.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#552

Post by lurr » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 8:51 PM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #332

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

You must be from US. As a European, I find all these things very absurd. Like the guys with the "dongle" joke that both got fired [1], and if I remember correctly, so did the woman reporting them. Maybe you should all start by treating each other with more respect, whoever it is. And don't go witch-hunting. [1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/how-dongle-jokes...

I'd agree that's absurd, but what Damore did was worse from a company perspective.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#553

Post by moduspol » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 8:52 PM UTC

nuet wrote: post #530

moduspol wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds good! So let's just hire the best candidate regardless of race or sex. Problem solved.

And what happens if you don't?

Apparently I'll only accept objective scientific claims to the contrary. We're turning over a new leaf here.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#554

Post by zpallin » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 8:53 PM UTC

dmitrygr wrote: post #133

whack wrote: post #78

"...employees of Google who’ve been discriminated against due to their “perceived conservative political views by Google " Is that really illegal? If someone was not hired on account of his being a White supremacist, would he have any basis for a lawsuit?

Yes, yes it is No employer shall coerce or influence or attempt to coerce or influence his employees through or by means of threat of discharge or loss of employment to adopt or follow or refrain from adopting or following any particular course or line of political action or political activity. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

This is good information for people to reflect on this discussion. There is a lot of speculation in this thread and it's what is ultimately leading to the divisive arguing.

However, I don't think Google did what you have pasted here. As far as I can tell, they fired him for violating code of conduct, which maintains that employees do not publicize discriminating memos, which he did.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#555

Post by BeetleB » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

dmode wrote: post #47

Veen wrote: post #3

From the article: > women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering Why do news outlets persistently misrepresent what he actually said? I've read his memo and just about every news article says it contains claims that it doesn't. I have no view on whether he's right or not, but I remain shocked at the misrepresentation of his views throughout the tech media.

Can you elaborate on what in your mind is the correct interpretation ? Because, reading his memo, I had the exact same takeaway as the Techcrunch quote you posted here.

It is poor journalism. Responsible journalism would write it as:

"James Damore, a former Google engineer who was fired in August after posting a memo to an internal Google message board that was perceived by many to argue that women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering"

They can also point out that he denied he argued this, and that there is plenty of disagreement over whether his memo said it or not.

I know plenty of folks are saying they read it and don't see how one can interpret it any other way. But the fact that you get so many comments indicating they did not interpret it that way is a strong indicator of a lack of consensus. The way the article is written implies a certainty, and does not reflect the reality around the memo.

Essentially, to insist that this is what Damore meant, based only on his memo, is insisting that a huge number of HN posters are playing the same game Damore is. It's much easier to believe that there are other valid interpretations of the memo and to allow for the possibility that Damore had one of the other interpretations.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#556

Post by Helmet » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

ryguytilidie wrote: post #324

vowelless wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. If the memo wasn't enough, him immediately going to right wing YouTubers like Stefan Molyneux, Jordan Peterson, Mike cernovich, Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, Steven Crowder, etc. is suspicious. [1] Generally I wouldn't have minded if he went to right wing outlets, as long as he had also gone to left wing outlets. I was willing to listen to his reasoning. But it became clear after the memo came out that he didn…

Wait, Joe Rogan is considered a right wing youtuber? I listen to his show all the time and I'm a pretty big liberal and while he sometimes does the whole "everyone is sooooo PC now" thing, he also talks negatively about Trump, the GOP and right wing politics constantly. I also listened to the James Damore episode, and while I thought James did a good job of making his point and Joe did an AWESOME job of interviewing…

Any living male with a pulse is generally considered to be "right-wing", particularly if they ask questions or exhibit any skepticism towards mainstream liberal culture.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#557

Post by lurr » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

MollyR wrote: post #233

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a fast 7 figure settlement. Conservatives/Populists groups are literally salivating for discovery to nail google on other things. EDIT: Also reminder some googlers kept politically motivated blacklists, if those blacklists were on company computers, Google will be hammered for it. Discovery could go wrong for Google in a million ways. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/google-manifesto-…

Really, because "We have emails from coworkers saying they won't work you anymore, we have numerous news stories that paint this in a terrible light, we have internal emails that show we spent a stupid amount of time dealing with PR issues from this, etc..." sounds like a pretty good argument for why he got fired.

or do you mean google settles? maybe. I kind of wish they would just let their lawyers run wild with this though.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#558

Post by samfriedman » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

ironjunkie wrote: post #498

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? He actually does say that... > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. [...] > This is all part of a politically driven agenda that destroys everyone trying to question the unique, politically-correct acceptable way o…

No, he didn't say that. He speaks about the `distribution of preferences and abilities`. Going from a distribution to state that `women are worse then men at engineering` is a false narrative and COMPLETELY different. You probably didn't realize that because you already made your own politically-correct version of the truth on that subject, and refuse any discussion about those topics. For example, what he said doesn…

I'd say that the very fact that identical quotes from the memo can be used to argue opposite positions in earnest shows - with no judgment for which side is correct - that the memo itself is poorly written.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#559

Post by lnino » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

The merit (or lack thereof) of his claims and views matter little in this case. The case is visible enough and touches on politically relevant points enough so that there will be tons of people on both sides willing to fund this case all the way to supreme court. Then there is the problem with how damaging discovery would be to the company. It will probably will get settled fast, with Google paying him a few years worth of salary and a non-disclosure clause that will make him never speak publicly about the episode again. Unless the guy gets too greedy and push for too many figures, then it will be a shit storm.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#560

Post by manigandham » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

pillowkusis wrote: post #504

manigandham wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diversity based on outward appearance is one of the most convoluted and ridiculous movements ever. We cannot spend decades trying to show that appearance is absolutely meaningless to talent, skills, and motivation, and then regress right back to it to show off "diversity". Also nobody ever seems to ask: diversity of what exactly? What's the target? Life experience? There is no qualitative score for that, nor is any s…

I think many companies aren’t promoting “diversity” to support an ideology, they do it because it has specific PR and legal outcomes that help their image. Companies with high diversity metrics get praised in the press. Companies with low diversity metrics get negative attention. Diversity metrics are also a solid defense in real courts and the court of public opinion when race/gender/sexual harassment claims come up…

That seems to me like an idealogy of its own, but what exactly are diversity metrics measuring then? Appearance and other unchangeable physical traits? How unfortunate since they have nothing to do with interests, abilities, or character.