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I'm not a Woman in Tech

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Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#551

Post by tarsinge »

wumpus wrote: post #268
tarsinge wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Things don't magically get fixed culturally and socially - that takes an integration. Not necessarily, I see 2 opinions on how to fix this : - An "active integration" like you explain, where the differences are highlighted (what we mostly see in the US). The idea is that by forcing the change we'll get used to it. - A post-racial/genre approach, where the differences are made as irrelevant as any physical trait, so…

Note that France is much, much worse at integrating immigrants than the US. Also, you editorialized a lot in your description of "active integration".

My knowledge of the US is very limited but that's not what I've seen, for the me the "integration" in the US seems not very deep. At least in France in Paris there is a mixed middle class, the diversity in the workplace is huge at every level (well ok except for developers, even if there is a lot of CS grads the majority goes to consulting), there is a common culture and group of friends and colleagues are diverse without even noticing it without conscious thinking.

Sorry for the edits, I'm not a good english speaker and the tone wasn't right.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#552

Post by arkh »

unidentified103 wrote: post #464
tomc1985 wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it implies an opinion of weakness to the party offering said "help". Many people do not need or want help and forcing it on them only serves to enforce hidden power dynamics on behalf of the requestor. What I really don't understand is how we men can act so innocent about all this. "Oh, I was just asking a question," "I didn't force her to do anything," "she was free to decline," "what, how could you not want…

So am I supposed to feel equally condescended to by the man in upper management who calls me "sweetie" and the woman who has organized some person to show me around the office and introduce me to people? Okay.

Do they do it for everyone?

Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#553

Post by nichtich »

meej wrote: post #509
unidentified103 wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite understand how a corporate policy like an "intern buddy" can be compared to a ghetto or even how it remotely hurts you in the same way that an unspoken "boys club" office setting would. A corporate policy like that is pretty clearly an impersonal management-type fluff program that does not solve every problem that could possibly arise from sexism, but that serves a resource for a few people desperately…

I'm not sure "corporate policy" is the right way to characterize it. This wasn't a policy adopted by HR or anything like that. An internal employee group took this upon themselves, and in the years before I did my internship it was completely voluntary. They changed that the summer I was there. As for the word ghetto, that is what came to mind when I read the part in Maria's post about special awards for women in tec…

Could it be they are not merely offering you help but also asking you to help others in this "buddy" program? Help can go both ways.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#554

Post by arkh »

richmarr wrote: post #458
Klockan wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doubling down on sexual harassment and other abhorrent behavior is very different from having stuff like women-in-tech awards and women only tech meetups. Also we have more initiatives than ever trying to get women into tech yet the numbers are at an all time low, shouldn't we admit that we need to change our approach?

Men-only clubs were broadly a problem because (at the time they were prevalent) men and their clubs held a significant portion of the money and power in society. Exclusion was an extreme sanction. Why do women-only tech events bother you? Do you think women are meeting up to exert power over you?

Some men

The gender war has nothing compared to the class war. A rich black girl has more privilege than a white trailer park boy.

Huge difference in network and in knowledge of what is available for education and financial investment.

And guess what part of the working world has given the most opportunities to get out of the gutter the last 3 decades? Tech. So when trust-fund people start complaining on behalf of women, it can feel like class warfare.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#555

Post by allenbrunson »

Dove wrote: post #507
spyhi wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for saying this--too often people hand-wave away others' problems though, ironically, they may end up inheriting them. Your comment reminded me about an article on how Millennial women are conflicted about being breadwinners. [1] Between chuckling about how I (a Millennial guy) have said many of the quotes nearly verbatim, it dawned on me that as we approach equality in the workplace these women are being now…

Haha! On point. I can identify with that article. Man, there's this wonderful quote about this I wish I could find, about how women were somehow sold the idea that the working world, the land of heart attacks and ulcers, was where the real awesomeness in life was happening, and where they wanted to be. There's this documentary that I just love on this topic. This lady decides she wants to see what the world of men is…

a bit of a clarification. your youtube link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip7kP_dd6LU

is not actually a "documentary." norah vincent wrote a book about her 18 months living as a man, and this is a news report about that experience.

i read the book, many years ago. really good. well worth the time investment.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#556

Post by uoaei »

lotharbot wrote: post #544
koaladevops wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the beautiful things about the HN community is that we expect and welcome disagreement don't think this is really true ... in any online community. My comment would have been the same regardless of gender. Since apparently I can't articulate what I meant, let me direct to a blog post written by better writers than me : https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-arg...

> "don't think this is really true ... in any online community." Stick around and give us the opportunity to surprise you ;) > "My comment would have been the same regardless of gender." You might have intended the same point, but I suspect you would have articulated it differently. There were a few lines like "We probably are under more pressure than you" or "Everything is about you all the time anyway" that don't m…

This might be the most well-articulated breakdown of the tribalization of these issues that I've ever seen, and how unhelpful it all is.

Do you write anywhere else? I'd be happy to read more of your writing.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#557

Post by michaelmrose »

OJFord wrote: post #502
michaelmrose wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are super angry at something. Maybe that something is perfectly valid but it does not seem a reasonable reaction to the situation at hand. You sound like the kind of person I would avoid interacting with at all costs because anything could result in non productive conflict. Have you considered people might be reacting to your hostility not your gender?

> You sound like the kind of person I would avoid interacting with at all costs And yet...

There is limited risk in talking to strangers on the Internet unless you say horrendously racist things then become Internet famous for it.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#558

Post by mirimir »

politician wrote: post #340
mirimir wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could create an online persona to have those "tough conversations". And use VPN services and/or Tor to keep it isolated from your real-world identity.

One invites scrutiny by advertising one's anonymity.

Yes, but you can have personas that don't seem at all anonymous. They can have addresses, cell numbers, etc. As much depth as you like.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#559

Post by Khaine »

richmarr wrote: post #458
Klockan wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doubling down on sexual harassment and other abhorrent behavior is very different from having stuff like women-in-tech awards and women only tech meetups. Also we have more initiatives than ever trying to get women into tech yet the numbers are at an all time low, shouldn't we admit that we need to change our approach?

Men-only clubs were broadly a problem because (at the time they were prevalent) men and their clubs held a significant portion of the money and power in society. Exclusion was an extreme sanction. Why do women-only tech events bother you? Do you think women are meeting up to exert power over you?

They bother me on a fundamental fairness level. It you change the pronouns and suddenly its unacceptable to you, then clearly it is also unacceptable as is.

For example, if mens only clubs and events are wrong, then so too are women only events.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#560

Post by atom-morgan »

tomc1985 wrote: post #331
meej wrote: post #267

"You’re victimising me when you do that. You’re indicating that it’s most likely I need special, extra support. Just because I’m female." This is exactly how I felt during my Microsoft internship in 1998 when the internal women's organization, HOPPERS, decided to change their successful "intern buddy" program from opt-in to opt-out. (Well, not really opt-out, because until I got upset with them about it they clearly…

Thank you for helping me find the right word to describe what most of these diversity, minority outreach programs look like -- ghettoization. It seems that many are more interested in highlighting the presence of minorities in their midst than actually rethinking their conduct. It makes most of the initiatives and discussions here on HN look like a sham. If I were an affected minority (I am a minority but not in any…

> I would not want to be highlighted because I am a minority.

I feel the exact same way. Unfortunately, my opinion is often dismissed on this issue because I'm half white or my minority representation isn't underrepresented enough.

Meanwhile many people in tech, specifically women and URMs, who have spent so much time focusing on them being a women or URM in tech are now upset that they're being viewed as just that.

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