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Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

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Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, civil disobedience is not permitted as a defense for humans in any jurisdiction that I am aware of. However, depending on the crime/charge, jurisdiction & relevant laws, it may be permitted to mitigate punishment for humans--but not for corporations. As far as I am aware, there is no court nor is there any case or any law passed, where a corporation is procedurally or statutorily permitted to introduce any claim…

I understand that's your view. I'm asking about its basis . Because what you're saying doesn't sound true, but the point matters (current context aside), so if you are right, I would like to know. > it may be permitted to mitigate punishment for humans--but not for corporations By whom or what, pursuant to what? Courts? Sentencing guidelines? Can you provide an example?

I understand what you are asking & why you think there is an easy answer that I'm not giving you, but unfortunately, there isn't one. There's no easy explanation that wouldn't require learning or understanding criminal & civil procedure first. I recognize that's not satisfying, but, well, law is overlapping, conflicting, and complicated.

But no, civil disobedience is not about sentencing guidelines, and its not statutory (legislatures don't create laws for breaking the law) nor is it a defense, but nonetheless, it may be relevant. Again, it depends on many things, like the case itself, the jurisdiction, local rules, applicable laws, the judge...and why any of this matters is hard to understand without a background in civil & criminal procedure.

Someone else asked similar here & I went into further detail about why. A short answer is that humans have have states of mind, intentions and motives, and corporations do not (maybe you think they do; the legal system does not--judges and juries determine them as elements of crimes for humans, but not for corporations.) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14278589

Hope this helps; I wish I had a better way of explaining, but, I'm no sure what else to say other than that our laws distinguish between humans and corporations and so do our courts, because our democracy has determined that its best for public policy not to, for example, allow companies, whose legal purpose is to produce monetary profits for shareholders, to instruct their employees to break laws.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#552
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if supported allegations of rampant corporate sexism and sexual harassment[1][2], legally suspect actions during corporate events[3], the "Greyball" toolkit[4], departure of at least seven high-level executives in recent months[5], a tone-deaf and self-aggravating CEO[6], financial analysts pointing out the massive scope of investor subsidies and lack of profit opportunities[7], and questionable classifications of…

Susan Fowler's blog post was what caused me to go from freely alternating between Uber and Lyft (and slightly favoring Uber because Lyft encourages Waze, and I refuse to ride in a car with Waze running) to using Lyft 95% of the time and only using Uber when Lyft is in a surge and I need to leave now.

Okay, I'll bite. Why do you refuse to ride in a car with Waze running?

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#553
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had ethical qualms about Uber for a long time, but I've always gotten good service. Unfortunately, I had a Lyft experience that really turned me off. They matched me with a driver who was 5-10 minutes away (I believe he was at Millbrae BART). He messaged to ask where I was going, and then once I responded he moved his car slightly farther away from me, and then parked it. We waited ~10 mins. He was unable or unw…

Why didn't you just cancel?

I should have canceled sooner. I thought it was possible he was filling up gas, or some other sort of bio break. Which in retrospect is kind of dumb

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that's your view. I'm asking about its basis . Because what you're saying doesn't sound true, but the point matters (current context aside), so if you are right, I would like to know. > it may be permitted to mitigate punishment for humans--but not for corporations By whom or what, pursuant to what? Courts? Sentencing guidelines? Can you provide an example?

I understand what you are asking & why you think there is an easy answer that I'm not giving you, but unfortunately, there isn't one. There's no easy explanation that wouldn't require learning or understanding criminal & civil procedure first. I recognize that's not satisfying, but, well, law is overlapping, conflicting, and complicated. But no, civil disobedience is not about sentencing guidelines, and its not statu…

It's hardly pro public policy for natural persons to violate the law, either. Again we come back to this point: What can you point to as any kind of evidence that courts make the distinction you claim. If your answer is that you would need to teach me civil and criminal procedure first, I would note that I am a lawyer and aced those courses, so feel free to assume an advanced understanding in your response. I don't practice actively in criminal matters, hence my seeking to learn the basis of your position. But I understand enough to know that your position is one that, if true, it would have a basis that one could point to somewhere in some jurisdiction without saying "it depends on many things" and "you need to understand civil/criminal procedure". In other words, I see no reason why your view is automatic given the nature of corporations. It seems to me if civil disobedience matters, it matters as the reason for which the party acted. The law views corporations are capable of acting for reasons; how else could you make sense of things like punitive damages awards against corporations? Again, maybe you're right. If you are, please take advantage of the teaching opportunit and share a link. ;)

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take PRISM for example, or imagine a Muslim registry - or any other scenario where government requires companies to comply with a scheme and the company's appropriate ethical response would be refusal. (1) Why should we not welcome civil disobedience then or call it anything other than "civil disobedience"? (2) In a judicial context, what specifically do you believe would stop the same sentencing considerations from…

You seem to be kind of conflating ethics & civil disobedience? And expanding civil disobedience to include, for example, refusing to work assigned to you? The government does not require companies to comply with a scheme. Companies are free to contract with the government, but certainly aren't forced. PRISM & Muslim registries are also edge cases. There are many companies who choose not to do any work with the milita…

I won't expect a response but here are a few observations:

You seem to view civil disobedience as a concept inherent to legal procedure as opposed to being by definition outside of law. That seems to me a very unorthodox definition of civil disobedience.

What I mean by civil disobedience is any legal agent (natural person or otherwise) refusing to comply with valid law for reasons of conscience. If you are subject to a law, you can engage in civil disobedience. A company that refuses for reasons of company principles to comply with a legally valid order to comply with a Muslim registry is engaging in civil disobedience. The ethics of corporate civil disobedience is complicated given obligations to shareholders and need to respect autonomy/views of dissenting employees. But groups of people are indeed capable of having shared principles, and that has nothing to do with Citizen United. Fine if you disagree.

Of course those are edge cases. Instances where civil disobedience is relevant usually are. Those are precisely the cases worth talking about.

Creating just laws and violating unjust ones still in effect are not mutually exclusive.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#556
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds fine at first glance, but it's actually ignoring two important points. 1. In this case, there's no opting out of personal protection without endangering innocents - as long as you're using public transportation infrastructure (i.e. roads), an unmaintained and/or uninsured car is a danger to others. There is public interest in ensuring such cars do not drive alongside regular traffic. 2. Such "protection" th…

an unmaintained and/or uninsured car is a danger to others In most jurisdictions, it is illegal to drive a car without a specific level of insurance or with safety-related maintenance issues independent of whether it is being used for some commercial purpose.

Most personal insurances will not pay out if they discover that you were driving for commercial purposes, as there is a different risk profile for commercial drivers.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with a guy returning home from work looking to make a few extra bucks, and three pickups along the way happy to get home affordably Sounds nice, but I never had a single Uber driver that was doing it as a "casual" thing, or just to cover his fuel expenses and make some money on the side. It's a fulltime job for the vast majority of Uber drivers.

Casual Uber driver here who works full time in sysadmin/software engineering. Hello! > It's a fulltime job for the vast majority of Uber drivers. This statement is unsupported and contrary to every driver I know. It also runs contrary to Uber's own advertising.

I used to work at Uber and heard anecdotally that despite the advertising, something like 50% of Uber rides in the Bay Area are done by the top ten percent of drivers. And they do work a lot. So the vast majority might be part time but they don't do most of the work.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#558
post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we end up with almost every single contract including the opt out language. The majority of people don't read contracts, and many of those who do have no access to recourse to do anything other than walking away from the entire field of services. (While in theory the market should fix this by having service offers without those clauses that people who read their contract and walk away from bad ones can use, the t…

> the total number who are willing to walk away are far too smaller Because people are too lazy to walk away from a bad deal or simply don't want to read the contract they're about to sign is a really poor justification.

Is it really being lazy to not want to go without a bank account?

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be kind of conflating ethics & civil disobedience? And expanding civil disobedience to include, for example, refusing to work assigned to you? The government does not require companies to comply with a scheme. Companies are free to contract with the government, but certainly aren't forced. PRISM & Muslim registries are also edge cases. There are many companies who choose not to do any work with the milita…

I won't expect a response but here are a few observations: You seem to view civil disobedience as a concept inherent to legal procedure as opposed to being by definition outside of law. That seems to me a very unorthodox definition of civil disobedience. What I mean by civil disobedience is any legal agent (natural person or otherwise) refusing to comply with valid law for reasons of conscience. If you are subject to…

I just meant I wouldn't respond to a comment about how actually corporations totally have state of minds and intentions. Sure, one could write laws where they did (just like you could write a law that says anything), but that is not presently the case in any jurisdiction I am aware of and there's not much of a reason to think it'll ever change. Because corporations are not people.

I am not sure what you mean. I do view civil disobedience through a legal lens, but its inherent in its definition-its action taken in opposition to law. Its not civil disobedience unless the law is being broken.

From Wikipedia: Civil disobedience is the active, professed refusal to obey certain laws, demands, and commands of a government, or of an occupying international power.

I am not sure I understand your definition, but it is broader than mine.

I do not understand what you mean here: "A company that refuses for reasons of company principles to comply with a legally valid order to comply with a Muslim registry is engaging in civil disobedience."

What is a “legally valid order”? The US government doesn't & can't order companies to work for it. (Again, consider Apple & San Bernardino--the Court refused the DoJs request) It cannot arbitrarily demand data. (Obviously court orders for discovery, subpoenas,etc are not the same thing) And our Constitution & many very settled SC precedents, along with many other laws, make it illegal for the government to discriminate on the basis of religion.

Similarly, the US Government cannot compel Palantir or Facebook to make a Muslim Registry, but, leaving the Registry aside, either could fire an employee for refusing to work on a project for the Trump administration, (though it'd be a dumb thing to do). Any public attempt the Trump administration makes to create a Muslim registry will be challenged & enjoined in federal court.

If the Trump signs an executive order creating a Muslim Registry, it will be immediately challenged in court, and, a TRO or an injunction, will be granted for the same reasons.

Groups of people are absolutely capable of having shared principles & working together (its even common), but that is not how corporations are defined by laws made by legislatures or how courts interpret & apply those laws. Law is all about definitions, overlapping jurisdictions, and knowing which rules apply. I

However, the government cannot compel or order a company to build a Muslim Registry let alone anything else. Google & Facebook aren't ordered around at their whim. Plus our Constitution also forbids discrimination on the basis of religion. There are many more layers to this than I can explain.

My point about PRISM & the Muslim Registry was that they are on the edge because they are easy….since both are widely viewed as illegal and/or unconstitutional. As have US courts. Laws don't have to be changed; PRISM already violates them. Same with the Muslim Registry; if Trump orders it, a court will enjoin it before it is made. Neither the government nor Trump can order a company to build anything, let alone something that is facially unconstitutional. Neither is as much about civil disobedience as they are are about challenging laws in courts.

I don't think creating just laws and violating unjust ones are mutually exclusive at all. However, the purpose of a company (leaving B corps aside-rooting for you Etsy) is to make profits, regardless of who works there.

A company's BoD may believe that environmental regulations are deeply unjust because climate change is myth, but that doesn't mean that the company can order their coal miners to violate laws.

Last try: companies have fiduciary duties to their shareholders. Not breaking laws is implicit. When a company wants to change a law, it is cheaper & less risky to lobby for change than liability for breaking them. And a broader definition of civil disobedience undermines it, eventually into meaninglessness. Which is great for folks who don’t think words should have meaning, I guess?

Final comment on this: Though civil disobedience is defined by relation to law, ethics are not dependent on or related to law. Seems like our definitions vary more than we disagree.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand what you are asking & why you think there is an easy answer that I'm not giving you, but unfortunately, there isn't one. There's no easy explanation that wouldn't require learning or understanding criminal & civil procedure first. I recognize that's not satisfying, but, well, law is overlapping, conflicting, and complicated. But no, civil disobedience is not about sentencing guidelines, and its not statu…

It's hardly pro public policy for natural persons to violate the law, either. Again we come back to this point: What can you point to as any kind of evidence that courts make the distinction you claim. If your answer is that you would need to teach me civil and criminal procedure first, I would note that I am a lawyer and aced those courses, so feel free to assume an advanced understanding in your response. I don't p…

Yes, that's what I'm saying?

Hmmm. I'll try but maybe we are misunderstanding each other, because this doesn't seem debatable?

There are rules that define what kind of defenses, mitigating circumstances, evidence can be presented etc, are permitted for civil & criminal cases & what common law & evidence can be shared with the jury etc.. I'm unaware of any jurisdiction where corporations are considered equal to people or have a mens rea etc or were permitted to describe their corporate law-breaking as "civil disobedience" to a jury.

That's not how I'd say the law viewed corporations or punitive damages; guessing we use words differently & aren't understanding each other.

I am not sure what else to say; that different rules & laws apply to corporations & people seems to be a standard thing in my world. In my head its a given, so maybe my explanations are not as clear as I think. If I come across a link I'll share.

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