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What I Heard from Trump Supporters

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Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#551

Post by pklausler »

spinlock wrote: post #116
phkahler wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Liberal ideology should not be used as a fashion statement. Unfortunately it seems to be used that way today. What do you guys think? I've often wondered how many people voted for Obama just to prove to the world that they are not racist. Or in other words to show their moral superiority. I think the same dynamic was in play with Hillary - all she talked about is how "we'll make history" meaning "let's show them h…

I'm one of the few people I know who is an enthusiastic supporter of Hillary. I like her because of her track record on children's issues, 9-11 and the Iran deal (among others). I'm also conservative so I like that the last time she lived at 1400 Pensilvania Ave the government was running a surplus.

> 1400 Pensilvania

In non-alternative fact land, it's 1600 Pennsylvania.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#552

Post by darkmouth »

leesalminen wrote: post #420
cr0sh wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deportation probably wouldn't be such a problem if they weren't also deporting legal residents along with the "illegal" ones. Yes - this happens. We still don't know how many Sherriff Joe and other officials in Arizona deported. It was basically a program here of "if you're brown enough, don't speak enough english, and can't produce any docs on the spot" you had a good chance of being rounded up, sent to an ICE facil…

Serious question: why would an American citizen choose to not learn the national language? Doesn't that disadvantage you severely in life?

The other day I was at a mexican restaurant and the waiter forgot to bring water. I got up and went to the kitchen to ask where the water cooler was. The woman who saw me was unable to understand what "water" meant. Water. Let that sink in.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#553

Post by Joeri »

Yhippa wrote: post #40

This one gave me the most pause: > “Silicon Valley is incredibly unwelcoming to alternative points of view. Your curiosity, if it is sincere, is the very rare exception to the rule.” Substitute "Silicon Valley" for any major liberal enclaves, like universities and cities, and I think you see the same thing. I am skeptical by nature and try to take a scientific view of new ideas. However I feel like I get shouted down…

Things aren't like that here in belgium, but one thing I've noticed about the left which seems to apply everywhere is that they are ideologically petrified. The real problems of the world require left-leaning policies, but the actual policies the left are peddling are dated, harmful and missing the point. I feel like all the left needs to do to make a huge leap forward is to take an axe to their existing book of policies and reason things out again from first principles, but due to the constant attacks from the right they end up digging in around wrong policies.

In the end, left and right are artificial divides anyway, with not a single leftist or right wing viewpoint being exclusively held on that side. Identity cannot be divided into two sides, it is more complex, and the same applies to solutions. The key to good solutions is understanding where people with different viewpoints come from, without vilifying them, and then injecting the best aspects of everyone's ideas into a shared lattice. There are subjects where people are never going to see eye to eye, like abortion, but in most subjects if you keep discussing and not demonizing you can figure out a common ground. I had this experience myself coming from a strong left background and then working with a far right conservative, who I ended up liking, understanding, arguing and finally agreeing with. Nowadays we're both somewhere in the middle. As long as people on both the left and right can remember that the others are not evil, just different, and ignore the media (who really cause the toxicity) then things can be fixed.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#554

Post by davidw »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #543
davidw wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not. Here's one way it could easily play out: There's still demand for those people, and so they'll keep coming (and especially if by various means we contribute to wrecking the Mexican economy!), but they'll be pushed further towards the margins of society, and will be easier to exploit. Look at this, for instance: http://www.elpasotimes.com/story/news/2017/02/15/ice-detains... - woman takes domestic violen…

This. Also it's already illegal for a corporation to hire an illegal immigrant. If trump hired 10,000 FBI officers to start punishing the corporations who hire these workers instead of punishing the workers themselves then we could see some progress.

What would happen if the change were rapid and strong would be a lot of businesses closing, as Americans aren't going to take those jobs, and many of them are not easy/cheap to automate. So a lot of things would close and we'd purchase the goods/services from abroad. Or, in some cases, pay a lot more for things.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#555

Post by dreaminvm »

Frondo wrote: post #210
phkahler wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Don't those widespread calls fall under the callers' freedom of speech? Why shouldn't they be able to call for Thiel's ouster? For one because he's got his own free speech rights. But more importantly the parent poster was holding him up as an example of why people tend not to stand up for their opinion when it is not popular. Even a popular silicon valley figure was ostracized for supporting the "wrong" candidate…

You know what? Backlash is one of the inevitable consequences of having any opinion in a free society. Especially if you're a wealthy, powerful individual with a big platform for pushing your ideas. Especially if they're unpopular ideas among your peer group. Thiel is also a powerful, wealthy individual, with a much bigger platform than most of us will ever have. He's also obviously weathered the storm of being calli…

I think the OP's point was that even someone who is as powerful and wealthy as Thiel could get ostracized in a community of his peers by taking an unpopular position on a political issue, hence the average Joe could do much worse.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#556

Post by austenallred »

brianpgordon wrote: post #518
austenallred wrote: post #100

I moved to San Francisco from a very rural area (was working remotely from my father-in-law's farm), and there are a few things the liberals I work with simply do not understand about what's happening in "small-town America" (Disclaimer: I did not vote for Trump, and I don't consider myself a Republican). 1. People hate Hillary Clinton. Haaaate her. No, you think I'm saying they disagree with her politics, but you do…

> Things are tight, taxes are scary The economic angle is what I understand least about the Republican voter base. A core part of the Republican platform is that we should be cutting government services and programs in order to lower taxes. But these cuts disproportionately affect the poor. The whole point of these programs is to provide a social safety net for the most vulnerable. So I understand why the rich would…

My experience is that Republicans generally don't view it through the lens of "what will I get back from the government."

At least in the town I was living, there's "what I make" and there's "what the government takes" and that's the end of the equation.

Most people I knew who qualified for government assistance wouldn't even apply for it. Partially out of pride, occasionally out of ignorance, partially out of a fierce independence.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#557

Post by pklausler »

Arizhel wrote: post #442
rrauenza wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drive Foothill Expressway in Silicon Valley to work everyday. One of the weirdest things I noticed this election cycle was the near absence of Hillary bumper stickers. The lack of Trump ones, I understood. But when Obama ran, there were Obama bumper stickers everywhere... But today, I notice perhaps one car a week with an H sticker.

I live near DC. On the weekends when I'm driving in and around DC, I almost never see Hillary stickers, even though DC is a thoroughly liberal town. It was like this before the election too. I saw far more old Obama stickers than I did Hillary stickers.

Same here in Portland, Oregon, a place that makes D.C. look like Utah on the ol' left/right-o-meter.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#558

Post by orbitur »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #169
orbitur wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but my friends who do that seem to also turn a blind eye to riots and beatings from folks "the left" Yes, those "left" beatings get zero widespread cultural support. Violence is not glorified by any prominent voices on the left. Whereas racist and sexist voices on the right make a boatload of money and fill up the comments of every news article posted to Facebook. It's cultural.

As a person on the left, when you look at the left you see your bubble . That is, you see the people you are already agreeing with, the nice people. However, when you look at the right, you see the controversy ; the things most visible in the mainstream are the ones that are most talked about, are the loudest and most divisive ones. Your point of view is not symmetrical. I suspect the right-leaning people in this thr…

What media outlet, TV or radio or web, promotes active violence against Trump supporters?

I'll avoid naming them, but there at least 5 loud rightwingers who make millions of dollars promoting racism. Not just on the web, but on TV. On the radio.

This isn't a "people live in a bubble" thing. This is people exaggerating the size of the fringe left and equating it with actual mainstream right.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#559

Post by phkahler »

naravara wrote: post #407
phkahler wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I'm also conservative so I like that the last time she lived at 1400 Pensilvania Ave the government was running a surplus. I was scared when Bill Clinton won, but he is now one of my favorite ex-presidents precisely because he didn't make things worse. And yes, the budget was briefly balanced. Too bad that's not actually a core principle of the democratic party - see what happened under Obama, and see how little o…

>Too bad that's not actually a core principle of the democratic party - see what happened under Obama, See what? That he reduced the deficit during his tenure? >and see how little one of their biggest fiscal mouth pieces (Paul Krugman) cares about debt or deficits. Obama took office during an economic depression. This is how macroeconomics works. You spend to goose demand when the economy is down and you tax for the…

>> See what? That he reduced the deficit during his tenure?

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.ht...

What?

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#560

Post by glenda »

mLuby wrote: post #511
glenda wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both sides are guilty of this and always have been. If you think name calling and teasing are counterproductive then you must realize that race/gender/sexuality based slurs are all part of that as well. Not only are they counterproductive but they are not things based on choice. It was a choice for people to vote for a specific person for president, that is not true with the issue of skin tone or sexuality.

Though people don't choose their political beliefs as freely as you'd expect; upbringing, profession, region, and even genetics play a role.

At least not initially - and you're right that many will never reconsider the world view passed down to them or some may reconsider and decide it's the best because it's comfortable etc... But ideology is still much easier to change than sexual orientation or race regardless of who you ask. It makes complete sense to me that a group of people can't openly dismiss another and demand their respect at the same time. This is the "golden rule" and is widely regarded as a valid way to approach life by people with all sorts of political beliefs. If someone teaches you something wrong and harmful about another group of people then that is definitely a point of view that needs to be corrected for society to work.
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