The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored” • Hacker News Board

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#551

Post by kalleboo » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 12:57 AM UTC

grogenaut wrote: post #202

Symbiote wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd rather live to see the next day than care about what a helmet looks like. Do you wear one while walking? Or hiking? There's also an increased risk of brain injury from these activities. Most people I know don't wear one, because the combination of the discomfort, hassle, inconvenience and appearance aren't worth the perceived low increased risk of cycling compared to, for example, walking.

I wear one when rock climbing, kayaking, snowboarding, skiing, motorcycle, bicycle, skateboard, football, etc. Pretty much any time I go over 8mph. I even considered one in aussie rules football but they were hard to find in the states. I found that helmets for winter sports are better than hats. They don't soak up sweat like a hat does so do better in cold and are better vented than a hat as well. They also really h…

> have needed them (and bounced off of them) many times

Are you doing like offroad biking or something? Otherwise you should probably practice on your riding style...

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#552

Post by refurb » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 2:46 AM UTC

juiced wrote: post #239

Bullshit. I'm Dutch, never heard of or exercised this "Dutch Reach" behaviour and I was not tested for it when getting my driver's license. Instead, you just look around and in your mirrors to see if other traffic is coming before blindly and like an asshole opening your door, it doesn't matter how you open the door after you became aware of what is going on around you. I call this behaviour the "Dutch Common Sense".

Awww... you're ruining a cute internet story I could share with people that perfectly explains everything! :'(

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#553

Post by thatcat » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 5:30 AM UTC

pooper wrote: post #39

ScottBurson wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Riding on the sidewalk, for short distances and with a good reason, can be done safely and courteously, though it may require slowing to walking speed. How many car drivers never exceed the speed limit and always come to a complete stop at stop signs? Your absolutism should apply in both directions, no?

I wouldn't have to be rude if cyclists rode at walking speed safely and courteously. Some cyclists are incredibly self-entitled. Of course, I think we need stiff penalties for cars hitting cyclists. However, cyclists need to know they are second class citizens on the side walk. Yes, cars not coming to a full stop is a problem. But saying something else us wrong doesn't make me right. I'm glad you guys have a hug box…

>Some cyclists are incredibly self-entitled ... >you can ride behind me. No need to pass

The bicycle stops balancing itself as you slow down to 2 mph due to reduced gyroscopic effects. The probability of bicycle accident might be lower at 5 mph, slightly faster than walking speed.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#554

Post by astrodust » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:50 AM UTC

et-al wrote: post #153

astrodust wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a reasonable approach when the world is full of hostile cars, but it doesn't have to be that way if drivers are more careful. Some parts of town here riding a bike seems like attempting a trench run on the Death Star, there's innumerable hazards and if you're not hyper-aware of everything you will get smacked hard by one of them. This is completely unacceptable. Nobody should have to maintain absolute situati…

I agree with your points, but the reality is that we live in a town where everyone else is distracted, so the onus is on us (bikers) to be aware. That's it. Things are improving, and maybe one day biking in an American city may be as relaxing as a European bike path, but until that day, I think it's extremely important for cyclists to realise the dangers that are out there, and how to minimise that risk. And for some…

The ultimate responsibility for your safety falls on you, but the risk you're exposed to can be minimized by encouraging people to do things that don't expose others to high levels of risk.

Asking drivers to open their doors a new way to minimize hazards is good for both drivers and cyclists. Nobody wants to be hit with the insurance tab for dooring someone.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#555

Post by hollander » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 7:26 AM UTC

To be honest, I never use my right arm to open the left door, and I never heard of this practise. But I will always look in the mirror or behind me to check if a bike or scooter comes up from behind.

In big cities like Utrecht and Amsterdam, in certain neighbourhoods with lots of migrants, it is - as a cyclist - not safe to assume that someone will check for cyclists from behind. You - as cyclist - have to take care of yourself, which means driving more on the road instead of the cycle path. As an experience big-city-cyclist this is no problem for me. I merge with car traffic without thinking.

But I see it happen all too often that cars take a left or right turn without looking back. Same with people crossing roads without looking left or right. They just assume that the other people will stop. These are mostly migrants not used to our way of doing this, but more and more people using their smartphone in traffic do exactly the same.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#556

Post by gfodor » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 7:45 AM UTC

sbov wrote: post #516

gfodor wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

eh, depending on the car, often times a blind spot is just due to someone failing to adjust their mirrors properly. if you actually do it right, you should not have a blind spot. if you can see your own car in your side view mirrors, you've adjusted them wrong. if they are adjusted correctly, cars approaching on either side of your vehicle will pass from the rear view, to the side mirror, into your peripheral vision…

I like to be able to see a tiny sliver of my car. This way I always know how they're adjusted. Without being able to see that piece of the car, they might be adjusted too far out and I have no easy way to tell.

well, if you see a sliver of your car, you know how they're adjusted: wrong :)

seriously though, it's really easy to tell, just watch a car that is about to pass you transition across your mirrors into your peripheral vision. if there are any blind spots or periods where the car is highly visible in more than one visual source (mirror or peripheral vision) then you are seeing less than you are able to. i'm pretty sure there is no free lunch here -- if you are still able to see your car, then there is likely overlap between your rear view and your side mirror's view frustum, not to mention there is unused visual field in the side mirror anyway, so you're sacrificing visibility in your side mirror.

(you should still check for the presence of a car by looking behind you if possible, or cross checking your peripheral vision with your mirrors, but it's nice to know that you don't have any blind spots if you fail to do so.)

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#557

Post by mcv » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 8:05 AM UTC

kbutler wrote: post #514

mcv wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite a bit different from the Dutch situation. I've paid thousands of euros for lessons, with a professional instructor, teaching me from working the pedals and the clutch all the way through navigating complex double merges on the motorway, sending me from the motorway straight into a low-speed zone, and through every imaginable traffic situation. Before you get lessons in the car, you first need to get your…

My experience as a teenager and parent is similar to the GP - and my US license is valid in the Netherlands. Note that we have the added complication that we live in areas with snow, and thus are driving on icy/snowpacked roads for a good portion of the year. I wondered if it would be cheaper (or more fun!) for dutch residents to take a trip to the US, get a valid drivers license, and bring that back to Europe rather…

I'm not sure if it's still true, but a few decades ago, the easiest way to get a Dutch license was on Saba, one of the Dutch Antilles. Apparently, if you managed to drive around the central square on the island without any major accidents, you got your license, and it was perfectly valid as a Dutch driver's license.

I knew one guy who got his license there, and he didn't dare to drive in continental Netherland. He did have a Dutch motor bike license, but he didn't feel qualified to drive a car in real traffic.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#558

Post by jvannistelrooy » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 8:06 AM UTC

hollander wrote: post #555

To be honest, I never use my right arm to open the left door, and I never heard of this practise. But I will always look in the mirror or behind me to check if a bike or scooter comes up from behind. In big cities like Utrecht and Amsterdam, in certain neighbourhoods with lots of migrants, it is - as a cyclist - not safe to assume that someone will check for cyclists from behind. You - as cyclist - have to take care…

"In big cities like Utrecht and Amsterdam, in certain neighbourhoods with lots of migrants, it is - as a cyclist - not safe to assume that someone will check for cyclists from behind."

Do you think migrants in Amsterdam and Utrecht are worse at checking for cyclists coming from behind than other people? If so, how do you know this? Have you experienced it yourself and did you assume the driver was a migrant, or do you have more trustworthy data?

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#559

Post by jvannistelrooy » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 8:07 AM UTC

juiced wrote: post #239

Bullshit. I'm Dutch, never heard of or exercised this "Dutch Reach" behaviour and I was not tested for it when getting my driver's license. Instead, you just look around and in your mirrors to see if other traffic is coming before blindly and like an asshole opening your door, it doesn't matter how you open the door after you became aware of what is going on around you. I call this behaviour the "Dutch Common Sense".

Saying that you're Dutch and have never heard of this behavior is hardly evidence that the other 16 million Dutchies haven't heard of it.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#560

Post by mcv » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 8:21 AM UTC

johanvts wrote: post #433

mcv wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is simply not true, the helmet will be the first part of you head that touch the ground in almost any fall. Citation needed. From both personal experience and research I've seen about this, the head is rarely the first part to hit the ground. My brother did have a rare accident as a kid where his head hit the ground first and he had a concussion, but that's an exception. And it's generally not hitting the grou…

What I'm trying to say is that: If your head hits the ground (or anything hard) in an accident Then the helmet is likely to help. But I agree that most small accidents will not include your head hitting anything. Humans are pretty good at protecting their head per reflex. However I disagree that it is not dangerous when it happens. Just imagine even from standing completely still if you would jump into the air and th…

Yes, but in normal bike use, it's pretty hard to hit the ground head first. When you fall, it's your legs and hands. When a car hits you, it hits your legs. The most dangerous thing for a cyclist is when a big truck turns right without noticing cyclists next to him, which can lead to cyclists being run over by the rear wheels of the truck. Helmets don't do anything for you in any of those cases.

Hitting the ground head first is something that happens when you hit a deep pothole at high speed (which happened to my brother as a kid, but is generally rare, and I've never heard of it killing anyone), or you drive downhill on a steep slope and lose control, or something like that (which is why mountain bikers do tend to wear helmets, but it's not something that happens in city traffic).

I tend to trust Dutch bike and traffic safety-related organizations, and they say that a helmet's effect is unproven in real life situations. Some recommend helmets for kids between 10 and 14. I know parents who give their younger kids helmets. I don't, because I want my son to pay attention and not trust the helmet to keep him safe.