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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#541

Post by digitalPhonix »

1123581321 wrote: post #531
digitalPhonix wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> generally because the operators lower the yellow light time to increase fees I'm skeptical of this claim because the red light camera operators are usually contracted by municipalities. They don't have any direct control over the light cycles. (Yes, obviously they can be in cahoots with the municipality, but I would be surprised if that was common and not the exception) Do you have any evidence of this?

Chicago is one publicized example. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/10/chicago-shortens...

I am chosing, perhaps naively, that the Chicago red light cameras are an exception and not common because that whole process was criminal: https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/pr/former-redflex-ceo-sent...

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#542

Post by pclmulqdq »

archontes wrote: post #82
crote wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone shot a person with my gun, I would invoke the fifth amendment, and ask the government to prove who did it beyond a reasonable doubt. Sounds nice on paper, but unless you have an absolutely airtight alibi that's a great way to end up in jail. Oh, you were alone at home all night? Well, your neighbor is pretty sure they heard you come home unusually late, and a witness saw someone who kinda-sorta looked li…

Sure, but that's a problem for my lawyer, not me. And sounds like a great way to plead guilty to a lesser crime, but IANAL.

You missed the point. Your neighbor and the witness don't mean much in the absence of your testimony, but they point to the likelihood you're lying about everything you said on the stand because the detail of your location is suspect. If everything you say is uncorroborated otherwise, that statement might incriminate you on its own given those two witnesses.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#543

Post by seydor »

crote wrote: post #29

Surely the obvious next step is to charge the car itself with the crime of moving through a red light? Isn't that what civil forfeiture was supposed to be for? You're not getting a ticket, we're just impounding your car until someone bails it out... Besides, it neatly solves the whole responsibility problem for self-driving car!

The car is then required to do X number of self driving rides for free until the total amount is paid off

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#544

Post by ExoticPearTree »

sowbug wrote: post #298
hamdingers wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's new speed camera pilot (AB 645) explicitly solves for this. Tickets issued by these cameras are civil penalties issued to the owner of the vehicle, like parking tickets, rather than a criminal moving violation. This means the tickets are just as constitutional as parking tickets. It also means penalties are limited to fines and can't impact your driving privilege or insurance. Hopefully other states can…

Consistent, low-impact enforcement is better at preventing unwanted behavior than the rare and severe but also capricious enforcement performed by human police. It can also give permission for unwanted behavior. Cf. the Haifa study, where the rate of late pickups increased when daycares added a fine. One explanation is the fine turned a complex moral obligation into an ordinary financial transaction.

> It can also give permission for unwanted behavior. Cf. the Haifa study, where the rate of late pickups increased when daycares added a fine. One explanation is the fine turned a complex moral obligation into an ordinary financial transaction.

You know what they say: a fine makes something legal for an amount of money.

And for daycares, I think a lot of parents saw it just like that: a cheap way to keep the kid away from them for longer.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#545

Post by pants2 »

vrosas wrote: post #372
jaredklewis wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Haifa daycare study can’t be used to extrapolate much. They fined parents (IIRC) ~$3 per late pickup. Rerun the study with a $300 fine and let’s see how it pans out. It’s an interesting finding, but that then people take it to mean that fines don’t work (no matter their size) is insane.

My daycare fines parents $5 _per minute_ of lateness.

Three hundred dollars per hour? How is that acceptable? Certainly there's some sort of maximum or grace period?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#546

Post by pants2 »

estearum wrote: post #487
CWuestefeld wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that makes wildly different incentives to enforce, depending on the target. We all know this stuff is all about revenue enhancement, and in that capacity, the targets will become the whales.

Automated enforcement where fines are anchored to the KBB value of the car is The Way Enlightenment and utopia across that simple bridge

Or how about the curb weight of the car? Higher mass means you're doing a lot more damage in an accident. People might think twice about buying an F250 for their grocery getter.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#547

Post by rkomorn »

kingofmen wrote: post #533
unselect5917 wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like paltry sums like this. $300 is a significant financial impact to someone who's barely making ends meet, and absolutely nothing at all to a billionaire. "If the penalty for a crime is a fine, then that law only exists for the poor." Make it a tiny % of net worth, with a modest minimum and watch EVERYONE obey. Or at least something meaningful to everyone, or don't make it a fine. Use some other carrot or s…

X% of net worth is still a bigger deal to someone with a net worth of $20 than to someone with a net worth of $20M, even though the latter may get some sticker shock. And it's possible (if rare) to have a reasonably middle-class lifestyle and an actually negative net worth. Presumably you would not make it possible to pay off student loans by repeatedly violating a red light, although it would be very funny.

> Presumably you would not make it possible to pay off student loans by repeatedly violating a red light

I lack the context and knowledge to understand how this would work, but I am curious (enough to ask but not enough to google it, admittedly).

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#548

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

pants2 wrote: post #545
vrosas wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daycare fines parents $5 _per minute_ of lateness.

Three hundred dollars per hour? How is that acceptable? Certainly there's some sort of maximum or grace period?

How much does it cost to keep the facility open for 1 minute? Power, staff, etc.

And then there's the challenge of keeping people on staff at all when parents consistently make the staff work late.

Beyond that, it seems like a good way to achieve the objective of convincing parents to not offload externalities onto others by being late.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#549

Post by asdff »

cromka wrote: post #10
embedding-shape wrote: post #2

Seems the fact that it was a "red light camera" is completely irrelevant? The relevant part: > The defendant argued the statute unconstitutionally requires the registered owner to prove they were not driving — instead of requiring the government to prove who was behind the wheel. Bit like having to prove you weren't the one breaking in , rather than the police having to prove you were guilty. In light of this, seems…

Not the same. They know the car was yours so, by extension, you should be aware of its whereabouts at any given moment. If it wasn't you driving, you know who. An illegal activity was committed using your tool and you know who did it. They have every right to question you. If you do not know, you testify as such, but then again you need to plausibly explain why was someone operating your car while you were not aware…

Speed camera tickets show up in the mail weeks after the fact. Say your entire family uses your car. You know who was driving the family car at 2pm on a random sunday five weeks ago? I'm guessing not...

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#550

Post by 5o1ecist »

kingofmen wrote: post #533
unselect5917 wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like paltry sums like this. $300 is a significant financial impact to someone who's barely making ends meet, and absolutely nothing at all to a billionaire. "If the penalty for a crime is a fine, then that law only exists for the poor." Make it a tiny % of net worth, with a modest minimum and watch EVERYONE obey. Or at least something meaningful to everyone, or don't make it a fine. Use some other carrot or s…

X% of net worth is still a bigger deal to someone with a net worth of $20 than to someone with a net worth of $20M, even though the latter may get some sticker shock. And it's possible (if rare) to have a reasonably middle-class lifestyle and an actually negative net worth. Presumably you would not make it possible to pay off student loans by repeatedly violating a red light, although it would be very funny.

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