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Ireland shuts last coal plant, becomes 15th coal-free country in Europe (2025)

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Re: Ireland shuts last coal plant, becomes 15th coal-free country in Europe (2025)

#541

Post by simonask »

cjblomqvist wrote: post #506
deanc wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is now how we should be looking at the problem. It doesn't matter if you burn coal yourself or not. What matters is the source of your energy. Every single one of those countries imports energy from other markets which consume fossil fuels for production.

I know at least Sweden has been a net exporter for a long time. It's a little bit complicated (that's what happens in a market economy). Anyhow, we/EU should continue to strive to end coal as an energy source for all countries, be since we can do much better.

The unique geography of the Scandinavian peninsula combined with very low population density makes Sweden a bit less interesting in terms of achieving zero emissions in other geographies, and I doubt Swedes would be cool with expanding hydro and nuclear to the scale required by Germany.

But yeah, I mean, good job and all. The answer for the rest of the continent is going to be wind and solar in the medium term, and probably more nuclear in the long term.

Re: Ireland shuts last coal plant, becomes 15th coal-free country in Europe (2025)

#542

Post by idiotsecant »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #423
idiotsecant wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Which to we ignore for coal? Cost to build a new plant? Cost to run? The decommissioning costs? (Yes we ignore the externalities, and no I don't think we should burn coal. My point is Nuclear has yet to pay its way anywhere in the world, without heavy heavy govt support - far exceeding that given to renewables) Yes, all three. Building a nuke plant without the additional concern for outcome that we put on nuke would…

A nuke plant is concrete, pumps, fuel storage and (re)processing, a huge pressure vessel, some very complex moderator machinery, and some of the most complex industrial plant control on the planet. Even if you ramped down the safety, it still wouldn't be cheap or simple.

Are you implying that a coal plant doesn't have literally every single one of these? I have done industrial controls engineering for both and coal plants are actually quite complex. Take my word for it, they're well within spitting distance of one another, at the most basic level. The only difference is the enormous level of surety provided in a nuke plant design.

Re: Ireland shuts last coal plant, becomes 15th coal-free country in Europe (2025)

#543

Post by teamonkey »

linksnapzz wrote: post #479
ok_dad wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luckily solar panels work for 30+ years while coal works for only as long as you burn it. You can also recycle solar panels, but try reversing entropy to get your coal back and you’ll see what’s up. Cloudy days are solved by wind, ocean energy, geothermal, storage, etc.

"Cloudy days are solved by wind, ocean energy, geothermal, storage," Or, as Homer Simpson famously put it..."I dunno; Internet?" But seriously, there's no significant recycling of solar panels, coal extraction is a known process, and good luck running an industrial economy exclusively on renewables.

There’s no significant recycling of solar panels because they’re still in operation and don’t need to be recycled. Turns out solar panels last decades with only minor degradation so they haven’t needed to be recycled at scale.

They’re almost entirely glass and aluminium anyway. We know how to recycle glass and aluminium.

Re: Ireland shuts last coal plant, becomes 15th coal-free country in Europe (2025)

#544

Post by tialaramex »

Qwertious wrote: post #504
hihitsdumb wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this battery technology grow on trees in Ireland, or does it exist in a foreign (and perhaps one day adversial) nation, like China? The sheer number of people in this thread saying, "we need renewables to be independent!", from countries that don't actually manufacture anything, is astonishing.

There's at least as much battery production of batteries in Ireland as there are viable coal mine sites.

And crucially batteries aren't fuel they're storage.

Also all these economies do make stuff, they just don't employ huge numbers of semi-skilled workers to do so. Most of the factory jobs are gone, but the factories are not. I live in a port city, about a century ago this city had loads of jobs crewing ships and loading cargo but today more work is done by a tiny fraction as many people.

Re: Ireland shuts last coal plant, becomes 15th coal-free country in Europe (2025)

#545

Post by zahlman »

moominpapa wrote: post #419
zahlman wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per your own source : 1. There are coordination issues that have caused them to overestimate the need for such plants, which have been running at low capacity. There have also been perverse incentives to build plants that weren't needed, in order to placate the relevant stakeholders. 2. Battery storage (including pumped hydro) is being pursued aggressively, specifically (among other things) to address the reliability…

Not sure how this refutes my rhetorical question whether China are building more coal power stations. Nothing disingenuous about giving an answer deliberately picked from a source favourable to the carbon scare mongerers. As for obnoxious, I replied in the manner the question was asked.

> Not sure how this refutes my rhetorical question whether China are building more coal power stations

It invalidates the rhetorical question by pointing out how it is irrelevant to your original position.

Re: Ireland shuts last coal plant, becomes 15th coal-free country in Europe (2025)

#546

Post by teachrdan »

kenferry wrote: post #444

Is HN being astroturfed? What’s up with all these pro-coal comments?

I wonder if there's a startup out there selling AI-generated comments for astroturfing HN, Reddit, et al. And then I wonder if that startup is a YCombinator company...

Re: Ireland shuts last coal plant, becomes 15th coal-free country in Europe (2025)

#547

Post by toraway »

linksnapzz wrote: post #505
toraway wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> storage There’s the direct answer to your question, cost of installed grid battery storage are getting cheaper by the user and it’s completely viable option at present. It’s not some vague fantasy idea like power plants in space or something, just look at California’s energy mix during peaks that in just a few years has become dominated by solar+batteries. For longer periods of low-sun in a climate like Ireland see…

I wonder how cheap one would have to make electricity to make up for CA's silly regulatory environment and confiscatory taxes. Places like California, which is right up there w/ Tunisia as the best-case scenario for solar, will have so much surplus electricity that USX and Tata are rushing to build steel mills there to take advantage. Any day now, for sure.

That’s called moving the goalposts.

No one ever claimed CA would have “so much surplus electricity that USX and Tata are rushing to build steel mills”.

Your “concern” was that there is no non-fantasy means to deal with transient output of solar or other renewables, I showed you how that is being implemented in the real world as we speak to deal with CA’s notorious peak evening load without blackouts. And it will only become more cost effective over time thanks to economies of scale.

CA has just started bringing grid storage online in the last few years but it’s already making an appreciable difference during peak times that in the past years resulted in blackouts.

It shows the clear, achievable path to a renewable + battery (+ nat gas) future that’s 95% renewables and highly resilient. Grid storage isn’t a “10 years away” fantasy like anti-renewable advocates might wish and it’s the critical piece to make those plans possible.

https://www.caiso.com/todays-outlook/supply

Re: Ireland shuts last coal plant, becomes 15th coal-free country in Europe (2025)

#548

Post by catlifeonmars »

brohee wrote: post #317
catlifeonmars wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s wrong with nuclear energy?

Not cost competitive with solar+batteries in many locales (less so the closer to the poles), and no learning curve, if anything a negative learning curve, nuclear never was more expensive than new nuclear. And off course societal (and geopolitical) acceptance issues.

The cost competitiveness and societal issues make sense (though I suspect some of the cost is being externalized in terms of materials extraction and manufacturing).

I don’t understand what you mean by “no learning curve”. Do you mean that the learning curve is particularly steep for plant operators?

Re: Ireland shuts last coal plant, becomes 15th coal-free country in Europe (2025)

#550

Post by avianlyric »

hihitsdumb wrote: post #500
tpm wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are replacing old dirty plants. Actual coal burned is not rising anymore.

So they are building new coal plants.

Yes, many of which are expected to never actually be used. Accidental result of how China does its provence based infra funding.

Right now China is building out more solar and wind per year than than the entire total deployed solar and wind in the entire UK, and they’re only getting fast. Their ability build renewables now vastly outstrips their historical coal buildout and their rising energy demands. They’re well on their way to achieving net zero far faster than anyone thought was possible.

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