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I'm returning my Framework 16

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#541

Post by dpatterbee »

Moldoteck wrote: post #425
jimmaswell wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people around me prolesytize these modern Macbooks endlessly but I don't quite get it. I've tried them but I still love my Framework 16 to bits and I'd take it any day of the week. The Macbooks are great machines, and one thing I can say in their favor is the battery life is phenomenal, but I prefer my Framework's aesthetics and feel - it feels more like I'm holding something I've worked on and made my own vs ju…

First time I read that the trackpad of Framework is 'just as good' as in macbooks

As a daily user of both a first gen framework 13 and a M1 MacBook Pro, the MacBook touchpad is like 5-10% better. And I suspect that's all software because I did something recently that absolutely fucked the response and feel of my framework touchpad that I haven't figured out how to undo so there's clearly a lot of room for manoeuvre in software.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#542

Post by cosmic_cheese »

jdujfkhllhl wrote: post #516
akvadrako wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

500 nits is not really good enough for laptop that you might use outside. Luckily they are still improving and we now have Tandem OLED with about double that.

Should a laptop be optimized for indoor or outdoor use?

Given the primary selling point of laptops is their portability (often at the cost of other things), they should be optimized to be highly usable wherever they might end up getting used.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#543

Post by heavyset_go »

cromka wrote: post #539
heavyset_go wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most server and embedded oriented software has been compiled for ARM 7 & 8 for a while now, but in my experience, software you'd use on a desktop might not have ARM builds unless it's popular with RPi or handheld gaming enthusiasts.

But what do you mean by having builds? You should hardly ever need to download a pre built software from the Internet, outside of the repositories, unless it's proprietary software?

Repos don't always have everything, and if software is offered via AppImage, Flatpak, etc, you're likely to be working with x86-64 compiled images.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#544

Post by neogodless »

rewgs wrote: post #295
neogodless wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how many laptops people own to rule out every possible model. My own experience is owning several various versions of Lenovo Legion for gaming and work, and currently an Acer Nitro 16. None of them have given me a single issue. Great screens, great keyboards, great performance, easy to upgrade the SSD or RAM. Short of really intense gaming, the fans aren't audible. And they are all around $1000-1200 USD.…

...and battery life that is nowhere near a Mac. And consistently shit speakers. I'm sorry but if you can't see that a $1,000 Acer doesn't compare to a Mac by any conceivable hardware metric then we don't have much to talk about.

It certainly doesn't compare which is why I've never bought a Mac....

But that's a goofy argument. Different use cases, different value proposition. My speakers are actually really nice though I alternate using them or using my HyperX headset.

Still I think you probably have zero experience with an Acer Nitro 16 if you think it's as bad as you're hinting at.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#545

Post by throwaway1413 »

People need to realize, Framework laptops are atrociously overpriced, terrible in terms of specs, loud, unwieldy, and not robust. It's a bad company that just rides on being in vogue with the tech crowd who see the word "repairability" and go nuts over it.

for 2k euros the author could have gotten a maxed out 16 inch m5 pro with: 10-Core CPU 10-Core GPU 24GB Unified Memory 1TB SSD Storage

This setup is superior to framework in basically every conceivable way (better power efficiency, more ram, more storage, better GPU, better multithreading, better single thread perf, more durable, cheaper).

If you are buying a framework you might as well set 300$ on fire and buy a macbook instead.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#546

Post by herewulf »

andrewaylett wrote: post #470
myself248 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the owner of a Framework 13, you're exactly right. It only has 4 ports, at least one of which is pretty much always for charging, and let's face it you will always want a USB-A, so that leaves two. If you want to be ready for HDMI output or SD cards, that occupies them both, better hope you didn't want another USB-A or whatever. Oh, and there's a permanent headphone jack, for some reason. Compare to my last Thinkp…

I feel like folk in this thread haven't used a Macbook Pro from the past ten years or so — which is fine , I don't expect everyone to want to use MacOS (I prefer Linux) but the hardware is genuinely nice. On my personal 2019 MBP I have four USB C ports, and can charge via any of them. My work M3 MBP only has three, but has a full-size HDMI port too (and a magnetic charging port I've never used). I carry a cheap USB C…

My wife has a recent MBP (a compromise to get away from Windows) and it's slick, fast, and super reliable. But you hit the nail on the head: Linux. There is no substitute. That's one reason why I swear by my Framework 13.

While they aren't the only manufacturer guaranteeing excellent Linux support, that and the upgradeability seal the deal.

Speaking of the MBP, the fixed disk size is really frustrating. Historically this is the one part that was upgradeable on all laptops.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#547

Post by goku12 »

brookst wrote: post #468
goku12 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a major clarification is in order here. I'm not talking about just the framework here. If anything, the problems with framework is the direct result of the absolutely stupid industry-wide product design culture and market tastes. You can see all the major open-ish hardware designers grappling with similar issues - pinephone, System76, Librem... I will explain later why it is so. But here is the point - we nee…

Lamenting market taste and the resulting mass market designs is basically yelling at clouds. Simple fact is that most people have different priorities than the “make everything upgradable” crowd would like. That’s not going to change. Why would 90% of the market “unite” with 10% who want a totally different set of tradeoffs? It’s like asking that all car buyers unite and demand manual transmissions in every car. I lo…

I was expecting this reply here. But it's still the same old excuse to do nothing. It's as if we deserve nothing better than what the companies impose upon us. That's such a defeatist stance.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#548

Post by rjdj377dhabsn »

copirate wrote: post #371
rjdj377dhabsn wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of upgrading a laptop may sound great at first, but I don't think most people really want that. After 2-3 years, my laptop is pretty beat up from carrying it around in a bag daily. I usually buy premium laptops, but still the hinges get loose, the corners bent, scratches everywhere, ports loose. Usually superficial issues like that make me buy a replacement before I really need upgraded chips.

With a Framework laptop you could fix these superficial issues while keeping the chips (and the superficial parts that don't need replacement).

I could, but considering how much value I get out of my laptop, I'd rather just spend $2-3k every couple years and have everything new.

Thr value proposition just doesn't make sense unless I were a struggling student.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#549

Post by herewulf »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #473
Brian_K_White wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody." That is entirely irrelevant. The product does what it says on the tin. If you don't value that because "repairability isn't a frequent need" then you don't value that (and the reason doesn't matter). If you* don't value that, then why did you read the tin, buy the thing, and then co…

As others have pointed out, a lot of us would very much like to buy a Framework laptop but as it is we can’t make it make sense. We’ll be customers if Framework can figure out how to patch up their shortcomings, and by expressing that sentiment hopefully they’re encouraged to try to do that. We value reparability and upgradability and are willing to pay for it all else being roughly equal . It’s like for the same pri…

No major manufacturer is even approaching what Framework is trying to do, so I'm happy to cut them some slack in order to support a product philosophy that I believe in. My 12th Gen Framework 13 is certainly good enough in this respect.

People have bought not so well made electric cars for the same reason (e.g.: Tesla).

Your car analogy does not really hold up though, considering that anything but an absolutely awful car is quite repairable and (in the right hands) upgradable.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#550

Post by tourmalinetaco »

piskov wrote: post #398
Tade0 wrote: post #299

I don't recommended getting a Framework to anyone who isn't interested specifically in repairability, as it has its quirks and doesn't feel like something which should cost this much. I've broken something in every laptop I've ever owned (+the butterfly keyboard in a company 2019 MBP), so to me it's an important feature. That being said my previous device - a "gaming" laptop - was essentially e-waste two years after…

The thing about macbooks is: - dead silence - unbelievably good battery life - tank sturdiness - great performance - amazing screen - amazing speakers - god-tier trackpad - repairability in a sense you’ll always find parts (albeit not cheap) and someone to service it — It is basically uncontested in a laptop space. I would only consider windows / linux on a desktop pc

You forgot:

- inadequate cooling

- fried NAND chips

- screens spontaneously cracking

- flexgate (not to be confused with bendgate)

And that’s only a subset of the engineering failures with MacBooks. You even bring it up in your post: the only reason they have “dead silence” is because Apple is literally baking your laptop and leaving you to pay the bill.

I’ll give Apple that their custom chips are pretty great for power and efficiency, but their actual product design is bad. I mean, who designs a laptop with the fan pointing the wrong way?[0] Or a power bus alongside a data bus?[1] These are literally basic errors that go into production for a company that is far too big for this to be happening.

[0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiCBYAP_Sgg [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ

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