Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

japantimes.co.jp

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

541–550 of 645 posts

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#541

Post by ipdashc »

cryptonector wrote: post #306
kccqzy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it reminds me of the Smyth report, published in August 1945 about atomic bombs, commissioned by the director of the real Manhattan Project. It’s fine to reveal knowledge in detail, if it doesn’t reveal anything related to constructing the apparatuses (the chemistry and the metallurgy) needed.

The press release following the bombing of Hiroshima specifically stated which method of refining Uranium was used. The U.S. spent a great deal of time, effort, and money on researching and testing four different enrichment systems. Just that one detail saved the Soviets 3/4s of a sizeable chunk of the A-bomb effort. Sometimes you don't need to leak much detail to give away a great deal.

Do you have the press release in question? I'd be very curious to see it. All I found at a glance was Truman's well-known one (https://www.atomicarchive.com/resources/documents/hiroshima-...) which was followed by the Secretary of War's (https://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/450806b.html) and neither seem to mention anything about enrichment methods or even the concept of isotope separation.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#542

Post by SubiculumCode »

qcnguy wrote: post #523
yanhangyhy wrote: post #323

Domestically, we often put it this way: since it wasn’t made by God, we can definitely make it ourselves. It’s only a matter of time — if not this year, then next year; if we can’t do it next year, we’ll just keep going. This is how we approach everything. There is a small caveat, though. China was not actually that far behind in the semiconductor field in the past. The problem was that corruption and fraudulent proj…

It’s only a matter of time, but time matters, as they say. You should know that what China is doing was tried in the past. It is an old story. When the microchip was brand new (invented in the USA) the Soviets realized they needed the tech for military purposes. So they built a closed city devoted to silicon research called Zelenograd. It was staffed with very bright physicists and engineers. But Zelenograd didn't ma…

The analogy with Russia is too obtuse to be useful. Russia never was an economic exporting powerhouse with tons of manufacturing know-how and willing engagement in the larger international capitalist economies. I am no fan of the PRC, but there is plenty of intellectual, innovation, and economic competition within China to make your analogy unlikely to be helpful.

That said, the U.S., if it wants to stay ahead, also needs to fight trends toward reducing competition via de facto monopolistic behaviors by mega corporations with co-opted governmental protections.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#543

Post by irl_zebra »

dangus wrote: post #526
soared wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me these magical cities where an extra $750/mo in rent lets you both move from the suburbs to downtown, and increase your sq footage!

Certainly! Here’s my source: https://youtu.be/kYLPUsn0X The top 5 or 10 of these you’re basically getting close to equivalent square footage or better once you replace your vehicle spending with housing spend.

Well, the video isn't available. And it's a big ask to make way out there claims and then expect people to watch whatever that video was to fully understand whether the claims are true or not. This is basically asymmetric warfare in trolling.

"Here's my wild claim, to verify it go spend your time watching a video!"

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#544

Post by NemoNobody »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #425
yanhangyhy wrote: post #323

Domestically, we often put it this way: since it wasn’t made by God, we can definitely make it ourselves. It’s only a matter of time — if not this year, then next year; if we can’t do it next year, we’ll just keep going. This is how we approach everything. There is a small caveat, though. China was not actually that far behind in the semiconductor field in the past. The problem was that corruption and fraudulent proj…

> This is how we approach everything. > This is because it is not only a government policy, but also a Chinese way of thinking. Nothing can interrupt this process. Is there any evidence that this kind of homogeneous "national character" is objectively real? Or is it just another story that people tell themselves?

Google the top 25 cities in China Skylines.

Your going to feel humbled.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#545

Post by qcnguy »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #542
qcnguy wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s only a matter of time, but time matters, as they say. You should know that what China is doing was tried in the past. It is an old story. When the microchip was brand new (invented in the USA) the Soviets realized they needed the tech for military purposes. So they built a closed city devoted to silicon research called Zelenograd. It was staffed with very bright physicists and engineers. But Zelenograd didn't ma…

The analogy with Russia is too obtuse to be useful. Russia never was an economic exporting powerhouse with tons of manufacturing know-how and willing engagement in the larger international capitalist economies. I am no fan of the PRC, but there is plenty of intellectual, innovation, and economic competition within China to make your analogy unlikely to be helpful. That said, the U.S., if it wants to stay ahead, also…

Soviet Russia at that time was a global superpower that had developed nuclear weapons and was winning the space race. It only exported heavily to other communist states, but it definitely could do advanced tech and manufacturing.

Modern PRC and USSR aren't exact analogues, but the approach of their governments is clearly similar in this case.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#546

Post by zhengyi13 »

snapcaster wrote: post #471
yanhangyhy wrote: post #323

Domestically, we often put it this way: since it wasn’t made by God, we can definitely make it ourselves. It’s only a matter of time — if not this year, then next year; if we can’t do it next year, we’ll just keep going. This is how we approach everything. There is a small caveat, though. China was not actually that far behind in the semiconductor field in the past. The problem was that corruption and fraudulent proj…

I don't disagree with you on the conclusion, but man I just wish people stopped believing in fairy tales about countries like this. America does it too. Why are people so allergic to materialism? I'm not saying culture is irrelevant but saying china's success is due to "Chinese way of thinking" or america was dominant because of the "american dream" is an adult believing santa-tier take. Material conditions shape his…

>Why are people so allergic to materialism?

At the risk of starting a fight... I would point at America's religious history, and the continuing threads of that today that increasingly see scientific/materialist thought as a direct threat to their ideas of how a society ought to be organized.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#547

Post by snapcaster »

zhengyi13 wrote: post #546
snapcaster wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with you on the conclusion, but man I just wish people stopped believing in fairy tales about countries like this. America does it too. Why are people so allergic to materialism? I'm not saying culture is irrelevant but saying china's success is due to "Chinese way of thinking" or america was dominant because of the "american dream" is an adult believing santa-tier take. Material conditions shape his…

>Why are people so allergic to materialism? At the risk of starting a fight... I would point at America's religious history, and the continuing threads of that today that increasingly see scientific/materialist thought as a direct threat to their ideas of how a society ought to be organized.

I mean yeah avoiding materialism in political debates is great for people dominating the material realm. I don't think that's an accident

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#549

Post by throwaway920102 »

irl_zebra wrote: post #543
dangus wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly! Here’s my source: https://youtu.be/kYLPUsn0X The top 5 or 10 of these you’re basically getting close to equivalent square footage or better once you replace your vehicle spending with housing spend.

Well, the video isn't available. And it's a big ask to make way out there claims and then expect people to watch whatever that video was to fully understand whether the claims are true or not. This is basically asymmetric warfare in trolling. "Here's my wild claim, to verify it go spend your time watching a video!"

I saw the video a few days ago. It uses some napkin math but the author does at least use a spreadsheet / toy model to arrive at their conclusions.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#550

Post by beachy »

GuB-42 wrote: post #490
MrSkelter wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

As a non-American, I think that Americans are special in that they have the right combination of hard work and personal initiative and efficiency. To oversimplify, Europeans are efficient workers, but unlike Americans, they use their efficiency not to produce more but to work less and enjoy life. East Asians are hard workers but they tend to favor group cohesion over maximizing individual potential, which is not as e…

As a non-American, but one who worked in US companies for decades, I feel Americans are influenced by economic gigantism.

The American experience is of triumphing with audacious, go big or go home schemes that others wouldn't or couldn't attempt.

To cherry pick one example, during WWII the US created airstrips on tiny pacific islands to fight the Japanese. Few people imagined it was possible to freight in the bulldozers, machines and materials to accomplish this, and it was game changing.

And of course we have the Manhattan project. Railroads. Gigantic IT companies like Oracle, IBM, Apple and more lately Google.

These successes fed into American exceptionalism.

This has its pros and cons.

In a world on the cusp of incredible discoveries, it let audacious American megacorps capture the high ground.

But explosive capitalist success has costs and masks underlying issues. Many people have had the experience of starting work at US Megacorp and being astonished at the waste, ineptitude and back stabbing that happens - yet somehow the corporate continues to thrive and throw off mountains of money.

The experience of that easy money breeds an unhealthy version of American exceptionalism where people start to believe they will and should succeed - just because American.

Things are different elsewhere in the world.

Up and comers make do with what they have and struggle upwards while the USA cruises.

Just one example are the thriving Chinese fabbing companies like JLCPCB. Every tech product contains a PCB. It's pretty obvious now that PCB manufacture is an absolute core competency in tech going forward.

Any two man upstart tech company can use JLCPCB's free online tools to design a PCB, then click to have the factory fabricate the board, solder on all the components and connectors, and have it in the customer's hands a few days later. True on demand manufacturing.

What would have cost thousands of dollars, taken months and required a team of experts a few years ago now takes days and costs a few bucks.

The US is nowhere in this relatively new but critical industry. The only US competitors are stuck in a local minimum where they get assured business at generous prices from security-sensitive govt agencies who can't outsource to China, but they can't remotely compete on price with their Chinese competitors on price or even quality and timeliness.

Post reply on HN