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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#541

Post by zakki »

lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

I guess modern people need more empathy to their elderly. In Asian Village I believe they have more empathy if the elderly is having dementia.

*no data though, just observing my village

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#542

Post by tsimionescu »

Noaidi wrote: post #507
tsimionescu wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever cared for someone with late stage Alzheimer or other forms of severe dementia? The reality of it is that a person who suffers from this is simply not the person you knew, by any measurable definition. They don't remember you, they may well fear and hate you. They change moods at a moment's notice, they live in a state of either lethargy or accute anxiety, suddenly waking up in a place that they don't re…

> Have you ever cared for someone with late stage Alzheimer or other forms of severe dementia? Yes. Did I say that it was easy? Did I say that the spiritual way through all this was just pretending like everything is OK? No, it’s a very difficult process. Avoiding suffering is impossible. Choosing to die to avoid suffering does not guarantee non-suffering. Only understanding suffering and where it originates can get…

You are not replying to my core point. Do you believe that a person with severe late stage Alzheimer is the same person they were before the disease reached that point? Do you believe that their old mind and personality still exists at that point? If so, why?

For many other neuro-psychiatric diseases, we know that moments of psychosis are reversible, at least to some extent, with drugs and therapy and the kindness of others. The same is manifestly not true, tragically, for dementia: everything lost is gone forever.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#543

Post by N_Lens »

Noaidi wrote: post #505
fn-mote wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it sounds like he lost hope in his future People in their 80's are watching their friends die one after the other. They aren't fooling themselves about their long-term prospects. No problems with enjoying life, I support that, but it's hard to believe the end isn't coming for you like it comes for everyone else. I just think this idea that it is "hope" or "depression" is wrong-headed. Having some older friends migh…

I am old. I have friends in their 70s and I have friends that died of cancer and suicide and heart attacks. I had a father who died terribly of a rapid spreading cancer and a mother who lived with chronic pain and heart disease for 30 years. I have friends who like me live in poverty some of them suffer from it, others of us don’t. If you lived in your 80s and you have not figured out what life is about then that’s n…

While I respect your perspective on the value of suffering (which seems to arise from our sense of self and what we associate with “I”) and figuring out life, I think you judge Kahneman as an outside observer without access to his inner thoughts, state and factors that went into his decision.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#544

Post by arresin »

wiseowise wrote: post #471
arresin wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will have an eternity to be dead. I want every second. Even if it’s painful. I am still alive.

How do you know if someone is anti-assisted suicide or anti-abortion? They'll tell you, whenever you want to do anything with your own body.

We’re all connected. What you do with your body has a huge number of ripple effects. Obviously. So yeah, other people get a say.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#545

Post by rolandog »

netsharc wrote: post #137
sillyfluke wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there is a danger of that in general. I think someone made a movie in Japan about the subject, specifically because there is a culture of the elderly not wanting "to be a burden on the younger generation." Some said it hit closer to reality than science fiction because of that specific cultural characteristic in Japan. It also supports Kahnemen's position of pulling the plug when "the going is good" from a ethic…

This was also mentioned in the debate about euthanasia in the UK; that it could lead to pressuring elderly relatives to off themselves. I can imagine the pressure might not even be explicit, it could be implied, and maybe not even consciously, but through behavior. Like a more subtle form of Shakespeare's "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?".

Huh, wow. Reading the Wikipedia page [0], I had forgotten about the term "direction via indirection"; seems to me like the first documented case of a dog whistle.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_tur...

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#546

Post by rolandog »

ipaddr wrote: post #230
netsharc wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was also mentioned in the debate about euthanasia in the UK; that it could lead to pressuring elderly relatives to off themselves. I can imagine the pressure might not even be explicit, it could be implied, and maybe not even consciously, but through behavior. Like a more subtle form of Shakespeare's "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?".

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3wxq...

Interesting article. I personally side with the opponents in this regard:

> But opponents argue it's being used as a cheaper alternative to providing adequate social or medical support.

I personally think that all attempts should be made to provide homeless and sick people with treatments, and they shouldn't be pushed in that direction if they do not want it.

If we do not have the capacity to do so, then my view is that we are failing as a society to provide adequate care for all in their time of need.

If a country is able to build dozens of city-sized data centers, then it is clearly choosing not to treat and house a certain part of their population.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#547

Post by dns_snek »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #381
dns_snek wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between "I don't want the disease because I don't want to become a menace to others" (what you're saying) and "I don't want the disease because it would make me lose social status" (what the original commenter said).

Either and or both? I don’t want to go that way either. If I start losing my mind to Alzheimer’s or dementia I don’t want to slowly turn unrecognizable to those who love me, fuck that shit. Give me something suitable and I’ll do it my damn self if needs be.

FWIW I agree with you. I want to go out on my own terms if I get that sort of diagnosis. The only major health-related concern I have is that I'll some day experience a traumatic health event that immediately disables me and stops me from making that decision, whether legally (competency) or extralegally.

I know there are medical directives that can be put in place but they don't cover everything and they can't compel anyone to end my hypothetical misery, the most they can do is withdraw care.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#548

Post by wiseowise »

arresin wrote: post #544
wiseowise wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know if someone is anti-assisted suicide or anti-abortion? They'll tell you, whenever you want to do anything with your own body.

We’re all connected. What you do with your body has a huge number of ripple effects. Obviously. So yeah, other people get a say.

That’s where you’re wrong. Nobody has a say what you do with your body.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#549

Post by christkv »

gield wrote: post #486
christkv wrote: post #394

I used to be for assisted suicide but I have changed to be against. The things that changed my mind is seeing how it has gone in countries that have implemented it like The Netherlands and Canada with what I consider to unethical assisted suicide of people with mental disorders and disabilities. It smacks of state sanctioned killings disguised as charity. The second one was what kind of psychopath assists in the kill…

What kind of psychopath is against people dying in a dignified way?

A psychopath that reads stuff like this https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/06/canada-...

You have to somewhat lacking in critical thinking if you look at assisted suicide and its implementation and still back it.

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