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We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

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Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#541

Post by alkonaut »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #158
Barbing wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>big scary message Open question: Any idea on making it so difficult that grandma isn't even able to follow a phisher’s instructions over the phone but yet nearly trivial for anyone who knows what they’re doing?

Sure. You ship the device in open mode, and then doing it is easy. The device supports closed mode (i.e. whatever the currently configured package installation sources are, you can no longer add more), and if you put the device in closed mode, getting it back out requires attaching a debugger to the USB port, a big scary message and confirmation on the phone screen itself, and a full device wipe. Then you put grandma…

Make it an obscure option in the first time setup so all the users that click next next next will end up with the secure mode, while the open mode requires fiddling.

This isn’t a gdpr opt out where both alternatives need to be equally easy. We (as a society) absolutely need the devices to default to the current model when purchased.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#542

Post by extraisland »

GoblinSlayer wrote: post #534
extraisland wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything in life is about trade-offs. Certain trade-offs people aren't going to make. - If you want to run an alternative operating system, you got to learn how it works. That is a trade off not even many tech savvy people want to make. - There is a trade-off with a desktop OS. I actually like the fact that it isn't super sand-boxed and locked down. I am willing to trade security & safety for control. > Personally…

>If you want to run an alternative operating system, you got to learn how it works. You only need to learn how to start a browser. You're a little behind the times, today browser is the OS.

What happens when the OS that is running the browser fails to update because /boot has run out of room for a new Linux kernel (this happened to me the other week)?

What happens when the browser update fails because the package database got corrupted?

What happens when a lock file stop the whole system updating because of a previous iffy update?

You are going to need to drop to a terminal and fix that issue or reinstall the whole OS.

Either way you are going to need to know something about how the machine works.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#543

Post by makeitdouble »

plst wrote: post #494
makeitdouble wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it will convince you in any way, but the whole point is/will be that it's not your hardware, you're paying for a perpetual license to use a terminal bound to someone else's service.

And it really shouldn't be this way. Everyone is tricked into believing that they own devices they bought. And we are somehow supposed to accept that the abilities of the device can be reduced after we bought it just because the vendor said so. Same with (lack of) right to repair. It's really not ok, nobody (especially here) should accept that.

Yes. Also, it is a crazy hard battle to fight.

The first step needs to be people moving out of the denial phase and realizing that we're already there. Our current laws are written that way.

That's the prerequisite to have any significant initiative to move the needle in the right direction. Most people won't care about fighting hard to secure rights they assume they still have in full.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#544

Post by safety1st »

samrus wrote: post #501
safety1st wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only competition can provide a solution. We have lost sight of this principle even though all Western democracies are built on the idea of separation of powers, and making it hard for any one faction of elites to gain full control and ruin things for everyone else. Make them fight with each other, let them get a piece of the pie, but never all of it. That's why we have multiple branches of government, multiple partie…

This doesnt work if the market incentives themselves encourage these rent seeking actions. We have given capitalists more and more power pver the last few decades and instead making things better, its just allowed them to nueter the government regulations that would have prevented them from fucking common people over. The market can not solve for this the same way it cant solve for education or the military. This nee…

Of course I'm in support of consumer protection laws but what needs to be more widely understood is that with Google specifically, probably with Apple and maybe with Microsoft, we are at a unique point in history where passing laws isn't enough.

There are laws on the books, Google's breaking them, and it's just forging ahead with more of this anti-consumer control crap anyway. Google's unique in American history, it has recently been ruled an illegal monopolist in two cases in two markets and a third ruling against them in a third market is likely to drop soon. Even Standard Oil didn't achieve a rap sheet like Google's.

Yeah of course we need government action and I'm calling for that. But people need to realize that this monster is way bigger than just passing a law. The judges need to be choosing harsher remedies including a breakup. The enforcement apparatus needs to be stronger, willing and able to seize direct control of the company if it doesn't comply or complies maliciously. EVERYTHING in the system needs an upgrade because Google is so uniquely huge and criminal in the context of American history.

They are a different, far larger and more intractable problem than your standard, garden variety corporate criminals and extreme measures are needed to rein them in.

Now, imagine a future where the Web platform didn't become a duopoly and Phone+Tablet+PC OSes didn't become a triopoly. A half dozen vendors globally for one, and a different half dozen for the other. That's a very very different world where someone is going to carve out plenty of market share by letting you continue to install your own apps even if they're ad blockers or whatever else you would like. You just wouldn't get 12 companies plus the US, EU and Chinese governments or whoever to all agree on a single platform. We need the big guys to fight. We need the market to be divided. We need competition. We need to slay Google and never have another Google again.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#545

Post by JustExAWS »

zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

So you want the “freedom” of being able to run the hardware you want. But you don’t think Netflix should have the “freedom” to decide where there software should run?

You don’t have the right to other people’s content - especially for rental content in the case of Netflix.

Even if you don’t agree with that, do you really think that Google should allow Google Wallet run on hardware where they can’t verify the security? No one in the payment chain would trust Android devices. Credit card terminals and every one else has to fall under compliance regulations.

The banks are liable for fraud. Are you okay to say if use unverified hardware to use banking services they aren’t liable for any losses?

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#546

Post by JustExAWS »

safety1st wrote: post #544
samrus wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesnt work if the market incentives themselves encourage these rent seeking actions. We have given capitalists more and more power pver the last few decades and instead making things better, its just allowed them to nueter the government regulations that would have prevented them from fucking common people over. The market can not solve for this the same way it cant solve for education or the military. This nee…

Of course I'm in support of consumer protection laws but what needs to be more widely understood is that with Google specifically, probably with Apple and maybe with Microsoft, we are at a unique point in history where passing laws isn't enough. There are laws on the books, Google's breaking them, and it's just forging ahead with more of this anti-consumer control crap anyway. Google's unique in American history, it…

So exactly what law is Google breaking? They are not a monopoly in the US or even 50% of the phone market.

And are you going to force app developers to support all of these platforms?

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#547

Post by fsflover »

josephg wrote: post #260
zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

My parents are getting old and they aren't tech savvy. The missing piece here is that I want my parents to have a computer they can safely do their banking on, without leaving them vulnerable to scams and viruses and the like. I like that they have iphones. Doing internet banking on their phone is safer than doing it on their desktop computer. Why is that? The reason is that the desktop PC security model is deeply fl…

> I want my parents to have a computer they can safely do their banking on, without leaving them vulnerable to scams and viruses and the like

So you need to install Qubes OS for them?

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#548

Post by GuB-42 »

Ferret7446 wrote: post #30

I think we really need to discuss whether IP/copyright protections were a mistake. A LOT of our "modern" problems stem from IP protections. Whether that be not being able to own media, right to repair, DRM, censorship, a lot of monopolistic behavior, medicine prices, etc. And no wonder, IP protection is government sanctioned monopoly, and it is generally recognized that monopolies are bad; is it such a surprise that…

A lot of us get to live thanks to IP protections too. >90% of Hacker News readers I'd say, including myself. Software development is all about IP, most of art too, and medicine, and chemistry in general. Who wants to pay people to develop software, or even design new hardware or medicine if competitors can take all that hard work for free?

There may be alternatives to copyright and IP in general, but that would require dramatic changes to society, and maybe not in a good way. What you would get is essentially communism. Rejection of intellectual property is a form of rejection of private property, which is at the core of communism. Problem is, looking at past examples, it didn't work great.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#549

Post by pontifier »

zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

I'm attempting to revive/create a streaming service to compete with Netflix et al. without any DRM. This would leverage physical media to eliminate requirements from copyright holders about how you might access something you actually own. There are challenges, and I'm almost certain to be sued, but it's a fight I believe is needed.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#550

Post by martin-t »

a2128 wrote: post #51
abtinf wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

No, but Google and Apple together could destroy a nation economically overnight without even lifting a finger, by bricking all devices within that nation and making their services (gmail, google maps, icloud) unavailable. No amount of guns or jails is equivalent to that power

Or they could "deplatform" anyone they don't like. Sure, you can live without google/meta/reddit/... but you will miss out on both business and social opportunities, especially if they do it without warning.

It will disadvantage you in life in ways which are hard to quantify for a single person (you don't know what you don't know) but will be measurable in aggregate.

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