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I'd rather read the prompt

claytonwramsey.com

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Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#541

Post by dyauspitr »

sgustard wrote: post #413
jameshart wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve come across this analogy that I think works well: Using an LLM to do schoolwork is like taking a forklift to the gym. If all we were interested in was moving the weights around, you’d be right to use a tool to help you. But we’re doing this work for the effect it will have on you . The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer.

Why do some countries cheat in the Olympics? Because it is no longer a contest of human achievement, it's just about the medals as a symbol of national glory. Of course: once all countries are doping, the medals will become meaningless. College degrees will suffer the same fate if everyone cheats to get them.

The problem is there is no reliable way to test for LLM usage unlike for doping. There’s no way to police this problem.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#542

Post by ozim »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #419
rohansood15 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Students want the diploma because it has value. It has value because a student can only get it by learning and problem-solving. If students find a way to get a diploma without doing the work, it will soon be worth less than the paper on which it is printed.

Soon? I hire people now and where they went to school means little to me. The first priority is “can they do the work?” which is a niche programming. After that is established, I barely take note of school. I don’t personally count a CS degree as an indication the person is a good programmer, or thinks logically, or has good work ethic.

Problem is you most likely don’t have that big operation.

For company I work for we hire 1 dev per year and I believe last year we did not even hire a single person.

So I do have time to check up the candidate do 3 rounds each 1 hr so that candidates can see what company are we and what person is the candidate. We also are small company so we don’t get that many applicants anyway.

I cannot imagine how it goes when someone needs to hire 20 devs in one quarter. Especially for a company that is any way known and they can get 1000CVs for a single position. They need to filter somehow.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#543

Post by joha4270 »

godelski wrote: post #502
lmm wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't fix the problem by making better choices as individuals, and exhorting people to do so saps energy and distracts. The system interprets integrity as damage and routes around it.

> We can't fix the problem by making better choices as individuals That's wildly inaccurate. Your logic necessitates that "the system" is not composed of individuals. The problem itself was created through individual actions...

The problem of individuals making optimal choices on an individual scale being sub-optimal on a society scale is so widespread we have a specific phrase to describe it: Tragedy of the commons

I would love to live in a world where everyone was altruistic and made correct choices for the long term good of society, but I don't. And there are limits to how much I'm willing to act as if I do, when in practice it just means I'm giving away resources to people who are purely (thinkingly or unthinkingly) selfish.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#544

Post by mezyt »

aledalgrande wrote: post #89
mezyt wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I fear that LLMs have already fostered the first batch of developers who cannot function without it. Playing the contrarian here, but I'm from a batch of developers that can't function without a compiler, and I'm at 10% of what I can do without an IDE and static analysis.

I've seen this comparison a few times already, but IMHO it's totally wrong. A compiler translates _what you have already implemented_ into another computer runnable language. There is an actual grammar that defines the rules. It does not generate new business logic or assumptions. You have already done the work and taken all the decisions that needed critical thought, it's just being translated _instruction by instru…

Yeah ok. I was viewing AI as "a tool to help you code better", not as "you literally can't do anything without it generating everything for you". I could do some assembly if I really had to, but it would not be efficient at all. I wonder if there's actually "developers" who are only prompting an LLM and not understanding anything in the output ? Must be generating dumpster fires as you said.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#545

Post by Aerroon »

sn9 wrote: post #221

> I should hope that the purpose of a class writing exercise is not to create an artifact of text but force the student to think; a language model produces the former, not the latter. It's been incredibly blackpilling seeing how many intelligent professionals and academics don't understand this, especially in education and academia. They see work as the mere production of output, without ever thinking about how that…

I think these complaints will fall onto deaf ears for at least two reasons:

1. Students are a captive audience. They don't want to be there. It's the law that makes them be there. Even once you're beyond mandatory education this holds true: they were just carried into further education by momentum. They didn't realize they had a real choice or what alternatives were available.

2. A lot of the skills you build in classes aren't useful to you. I spent a lot of time in my English (second) language classes, but it was my use of the internet that really taught me the language. The later years of English classes was just busywork.

In my native language classes I had to write a fair number of essays. The only time this was useful was the final exam of that class. I haven't written a "real" essay since. Even if I did, it would probably be in English and use a different style - something taught to me by forum posts.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#546

Post by simonask »

ascorbic wrote: post #520
ChadNauseam wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If students went to college only to learn, colleges wouldn't bother giving diplomas. Compare: My piano teacher doesn't give diplomas because none of her students would care, her students actually want to learn. When my piano teacher cancels class, I am disappointed because I wanted to learn. My piano teacher doesn't need to threaten me with bad grades to get me to practice outside of class (analogous to homework), be…

Most people don't go to college to learn for the sake of learning – that would be a very expensive luxury. They go for the opportunities that it opens up. The learning itself helps with that, but so does being able to prove that they've learned it. That what the diploma is meant to be for.

That's a US-centric view. A huge number of people in the world have access to high level education free of charge.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#547

Post by dwighttk »

dontTREATonme wrote: post #535
dmazzoni wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if your goal is to be a musician, a music degree is basically useless. Whether you want to play in an orchestra, perform in a rock band, or compose video game soundtracks, nobody cares whether you have a degree or not - they want to hear you perform.

Case in point: Rachel “Raygun” Gunn. She had all the credentials in the world but single-handedly became the reason break dancing is no longer in the Olympics.

Slight overstatement… break dancing was one of the locally picked sports and the next Olympics had already selected different sports before she performed…

But she is a good example of degrees not equaling skill

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#548

Post by johnisgood »

rohansood15 wrote: post #400
ChadNauseam wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If students went to college only to learn, colleges wouldn't bother giving diplomas. Compare: My piano teacher doesn't give diplomas because none of her students would care, her students actually want to learn. When my piano teacher cancels class, I am disappointed because I wanted to learn. My piano teacher doesn't need to threaten me with bad grades to get me to practice outside of class (analogous to homework), be…

Students want the diploma because it has value. It has value because a student can only get it by learning and problem-solving. If students find a way to get a diploma without doing the work, it will soon be worth less than the paper on which it is printed.

> If students find a way to get a diploma without doing the work, it will soon be worth less than the paper on which it is printed.

I think this is already the case.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#549

Post by simonask »

Aerroon wrote: post #545
sn9 wrote: post #221

> I should hope that the purpose of a class writing exercise is not to create an artifact of text but force the student to think; a language model produces the former, not the latter. It's been incredibly blackpilling seeing how many intelligent professionals and academics don't understand this, especially in education and academia. They see work as the mere production of output, without ever thinking about how that…

I think these complaints will fall onto deaf ears for at least two reasons: 1. Students are a captive audience. They don't want to be there. It's the law that makes them be there. Even once you're beyond mandatory education this holds true: they were just carried into further education by momentum. They didn't realize they had a real choice or what alternatives were available. 2. A lot of the skills you build in clas…

But this is exactly the problematic viewpoint. You thought that the point of letting you write essays in your native language was to enable you to write essays. It isn't, it never was.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#550

Post by internet_points »

> I should hope that the purpose of a class writing exercise is not to create an artifact of text but force the student to think; a language model produces the former, not the latter.

This so much. A writing exercise sharpens your mind, it forces you to think clearly through problems, gives you practice in both letting your thoughts flow onto paper, and in post-editing those thoughts into a coherent structure that communicates better. You can throw it away afterwards, you'll still be a better writer and thinker than before the exercise.

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