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Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#541

Post by rad_gruchalski »

cogman10 wrote: post #513
originalvichy wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to go into the details of this, for all the things people hve mentioned, you have to calculate the road wear done by trucks carrying fuels to stations every day. Electricity does not need the same regular road wear as ICE vehicles do.

Yeah, the refining and transport of petroleum products always gets left out when talking about EV pollution. It's pretty energy intensive to separate crude oil into it's various parts.

Sure. Because windmills and photovoltaics grow naturally from seeds. You need quite a bit of an equipment to put up one windmill. They are usually built in some distance from an existing road. So you need special service roads. Those need to be wide and take heavy load because the equipment like cranes need space and are themselves heavy. Then you need special transport because main components like propellers are oversize load. Then you need to transport them hundreds for kilometres…, and then you need the rest of the infrastructure to distribute generated electricity. Yes, let’s compare apples to apples.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#542

Post by TulliusCicero »

Saline9515 wrote: post #114
TulliusCicero wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A city improved the air quality "Pure sadism!!!" Yeah I'm sure everyone is real miserable, which is why they just voted in a referendum for more car-free streets. Amazing how out of touch with reality the car-dominance types are.

You clearly have a non-existent knowledge of French political life. This referendum had a participation rate of 4%, and only 62% of the voters voted yes. So around 2% of the total voters. By the way, the French metro's air is highly polluted, due to tire degradation and brake dust, making it unfit for children or pregnant women. So yeah, it's manageable for young people. But when a baby arrives, it's hell. Same if yo…

So the people who voted yes still outnumbered the people who voted no.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#543

Post by oblio »

Saline9515 wrote: post #404
seszett wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an environment that is hostile for families I don't understand this part, I read it quite often but... well, we are a family with young children, and although we do have a car we only use it once a week to go to the grand-parents that live 100 km away from here. A city with less cars is great especially for families (though I would argue that cities themselves are not so great for children, but the comparison here…

I have very two kids, plan to have three. Cargo bikes are not practical, are easily stolen, and are not safe to transport children, especially under 6 years old. Besides, when doing groceries for 5 once a week, I regularly fill my 500L car boot, so an equivalent cargo bike with at least 3 seats and a large boot... would just be a car. Which you have, and use once a week. Or when you need to go to the doctor. Or when…

People only look at extremes for this. Using your car less is still a win. We don't need to go to "you shouldn't use your car at all".

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#545

Post by arghwhat »

slaw wrote: post #539
arghwhat wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are comparing the max loaded weight of the polo with the unloaded weight of a dolphin. VW Polo Mk6 is 1751mm wide, 1461mm tall, 4067mm long and has an unloaded curb weight of 1105 kg. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Polo_Mk6 The BYD Dolphin 2025 60kWh is 1770mm wide, 1570mm tall, 4290mm long, and has an unloaded curb weight of 1658 kg. https://bydautomotive.com.au/brochures/BYD-DOLPHIN-2025.pdf . The V…

There is a 200kg difference between lowest trims of Dolphin and Golf, while Dolphin is slightly bigger. 2025 BYD Dolphin, length 4290mm height 1570mm, curb weight 1506kg - 1658 kg 2025 VW Golf, length 4282 mm height 1483 mm, gasoline empty weight 1307 kg - 1492 kg https://www.volkswagen.de/de/modelle/golf.html/__ui/technisc...

The lower battery trim is not available in all markets, and only does 300km on a charge which is below average. As such the minimum weight will have to be the 1658 kg value.

The BYD is taller to offset the battery, making the size misleading. However, the golf is not particularly a particularly good or space efficient car - others will do better at similar or lower weight.

250kg seems like a fair minimum weight increase, roughly 20%. The larger the car, the larger the gap though, as the rocket equation catches up - see a Skoda Octavia vs. a Polestar 2.

EVs are still way more efficient, but that doesn't mean we should turn our blind eye to making an already bad tire problem worse.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#546

Post by cogman10 »

rad_gruchalski wrote: post #541
cogman10 wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the refining and transport of petroleum products always gets left out when talking about EV pollution. It's pretty energy intensive to separate crude oil into it's various parts.

Sure. Because windmills and photovoltaics grow naturally from seeds. You need quite a bit of an equipment to put up one windmill. They are usually built in some distance from an existing road. So you need special service roads. Those need to be wide and take heavy load because the equipment like cranes need space and are themselves heavy. Then you need special transport because main components like propellers are ove…

Yes and what's the service life for that windmill or solar panel? What's the service life of the distribution system?

And what was the cost to build out and constantly repair the refinery?

The problem you have with your talking points is that solar and wind both have decades of service in them whereas fossil fuels are single use product. Further, once the infrastructure is created large portions of it can be reused when solar and wind hit their end of life. You only need new lines and roads for new installations.

All energy collection will have some environmental impact. It just so happens that fossil fuels have an outsized impact for the energy they create.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#547

Post by [deleted] »

cogman10 wrote: post #546
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Because windmills and photovoltaics grow naturally from seeds. You need quite a bit of an equipment to put up one windmill. They are usually built in some distance from an existing road. So you need special service roads. Those need to be wide and take heavy load because the equipment like cranes need space and are themselves heavy. Then you need special transport because main components like propellers are ove…

Yes and what's the service life for that windmill or solar panel? What's the service life of the distribution system? And what was the cost to build out and constantly repair the refinery? The problem you have with your talking points is that solar and wind both have decades of service in them whereas fossil fuels are single use product. Further, once the infrastructure is created large portions of it can be reused w…

[deleted]

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#548

Post by Cockbrand »

arghwhat wrote: post #528
slaw wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BYD Dolphin is size of Golf not Polo. BYD Dolphin weight 1600kg, length 4290mm. VW Polo weight 1580kg, length 3971 mm. https://www.automobiledimension.com/model/byd/dolphin https://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/cars/volkswagen-po...

You are comparing the max loaded weight of the polo with the unloaded weight of a dolphin. VW Polo Mk6 is 1751mm wide, 1461mm tall, 4067mm long and has an unloaded curb weight of 1105 kg. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Polo_Mk6 The BYD Dolphin 2025 60kWh is 1770mm wide, 1570mm tall, 4290mm long, and has an unloaded curb weight of 1658 kg. https://bydautomotive.com.au/brochures/BYD-DOLPHIN-2025.pdf . The V…

> You are comparing the max loaded weight of the polo with the unloaded weight of a dolphin.

In this context, what is the air speed velocity of an unloaded dolphin? Especially compared to an unladen swallow?

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#549

Post by slaw »

arghwhat wrote: post #545
slaw wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a 200kg difference between lowest trims of Dolphin and Golf, while Dolphin is slightly bigger. 2025 BYD Dolphin, length 4290mm height 1570mm, curb weight 1506kg - 1658 kg 2025 VW Golf, length 4282 mm height 1483 mm, gasoline empty weight 1307 kg - 1492 kg https://www.volkswagen.de/de/modelle/golf.html/__ui/technisc...

The lower battery trim is not available in all markets, and only does 300km on a charge which is below average. As such the minimum weight will have to be the 1658 kg value. The BYD is taller to offset the battery, making the size misleading. However, the golf is not particularly a particularly good or space efficient car - others will do better at similar or lower weight. 250kg seems like a fair minimum weight incre…

Higher trim Dolphin has 150kW motor and weights 1658 kg. VW Golf with 150 kW (204 PS) engine weights 1492 kg empty. I see only 10% difference.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#550

Post by rad_gruchalski »

cogman10 wrote: post #546
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Because windmills and photovoltaics grow naturally from seeds. You need quite a bit of an equipment to put up one windmill. They are usually built in some distance from an existing road. So you need special service roads. Those need to be wide and take heavy load because the equipment like cranes need space and are themselves heavy. Then you need special transport because main components like propellers are ove…

Yes and what's the service life for that windmill or solar panel? What's the service life of the distribution system? And what was the cost to build out and constantly repair the refinery? The problem you have with your talking points is that solar and wind both have decades of service in them whereas fossil fuels are single use product. Further, once the infrastructure is created large portions of it can be reused w…

Oh yes, the refinery. Fortunately some of that oil and gasoline can be used in various stages for renewables.
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