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'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

theguardian.com

541–550 of 870 posts

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#541

> The consumer group is among those to have highlighted Lidl’s loyalty scheme, Lidl Plus, as one that is only accessible via an app, with an email address also required. At least here in Finland Lidl Plus is one of the few which can be used by just entering a phone number. That said, all "loyalty programs" should be outright banned. They stifle competition, make pricing less transparent and discriminate against the l…

> loyalty programs" discriminate against the less well off. The opposite: supermarket loyalty cards are often designed so that the well off pay more: i.e. it is the well off that are being discriminated against. The barriers are designed to allow poorer people to pay less. The topic is called price discrimination. All the poorer people I know use loyalty cards because they judge them to be valuable (despite the extra…

In loyalty programs the benefit percentage often increases as a function of money spent, disproportionally benefiting the more well off who spend more. I've yet to encounter a loyalty program that would do the inverse (probably there are some that cap the benefits, which could be interpreted to be to this direction). Neither have I seen a loyalty program that would only accept poor people.

Price discrimination is anything where the same product is sold at different price for different buyers. All loyalty programs are price discrimination.

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#542

It's funny how people in this thread keep saying "well if you're going to complain about people being penalized for not using apps, you might as well complain about people being penalized for not using telephones/cars/internet"... and yes, I am going to complain about all of those things. I imagine that many or most homeless people don't have reliable access to any of the above. I have an anxiety disorder that makes…

> I imagine that many or most homeless people don't have reliable access to any of the above.

In the US there is a specific government program called "Lifeline" that provides cell phone service to low income people, https://www.fcc.gov/general/lifeline-program-low-income-cons... (whether it gets DOGEd remains to be seen...) And where I live there are a bunch of programs that provide free cell phones to homeless people.

It's not a panacea because lots of homeless people have other problems that make it difficult to keep a cell phone and not lose it. But that's really a separate issue - not having access is really not much of a barrier for the homeless, at least in the US.

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#543

People are writing this off, but it eventually becomes impossible not to own a smartphone; an expensive device, with an expensive monthly plan, and an absolutely terrible privacy record. Eventually more businesses will require smartphone usage just to use their services. There could even be a time when government services require it.

A landline phone is about the cost of a cheap smartphone, and the landline itself costs about as much as the cheapest cell plans. But you actually don't need either of those. You just need the cheapest Android cellphone or tablet you get, and access to someone's wifi, which is freely available at many coffee shops, or from neighbors. I still agree you shouldn't need it, especially if you already have a computer. But…

A landline phone doesn't spy on you, and has often better audio quality (unless you're in an area with great cell coverage). And you can also use the mobile network with a "feature phone", like those that were around until smartphones arrived, they're still around.

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#544

My doctor/'s office was just forced to switch to app-instead-of-website for patient interation. Ironically, the old and this new software came from same megacorp I work for (different department, same story). The old web interface was rather good and rather sensible-practical-sane. It was almost as if someone had asked a doctor what he actually needed for his patients, and then understood his answer and also managed…

At what point does this constitute a hostile action against the user and what degree of retaliation is appropriate? Open question for everyone.

when the functioning of the app means that people with disabilities, including cognitive disabilities, will be denied medical access, and the retaliation is probably a lawsuit appropriate to your jurisdiction, if your jurisdiction does not support accessibility legislation then you're probably out of luck.

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#545
post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can't it just take the photo, take the text description, and hold that until service is better? Just give the driver the map, and upload the other stuff when you can. The obvious answer is because asynchronous workflows are brittle, and require intervention from the end user to correct if they break Then most end users aren't going to care to fix it when it breaks, or be able to fix it when it breaks for a vari…

Relevantly, in this specified case, the picture of their delivered food is shown to the customer immediately. This is more than a nice to have (imagine a large apartment building, where your food could be dropped in any number of locations).

it's shown when the driver gets a network connection again, was the way I read that.

Because "[driver] doesn't know where to go till it confirms the upload"

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#546

People are writing this off, but it eventually becomes impossible not to own a smartphone; an expensive device, with an expensive monthly plan, and an absolutely terrible privacy record. Eventually more businesses will require smartphone usage just to use their services. There could even be a time when government services require it.

The UK is an incredibly competitive and well-regulated market. If you're in receipt of welfare benefits, you can get a tariff with unlimited 5G data for £12 ($15) per month. If you're a light user, you can get a tariff with a few gigabytes of data for as little as £5 ($6.50) per month. https://smarty.co.uk/social-tariff A cheap but perfectly useable phone costs less than £100 new from a brand like Xiaomi, Motorola or…

Totally true that smartphones are useful. But people can decide they don't want one for many reasons, including not wanting to accept 20-pages-long T&C just to turn them on, and surrendering lots of personal data. If you're a lot into tech stuff, you might go around that by blocking most data collection, but most people don't have the competence for this, or have better things to do with their lives.

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m gonna punt on the question of where the line is for hostile actions and use some past legal justification of “I know it when I see it” and I see it clearly here. The second part is the more interesting question to me: Appropriate reactions would seem to include: - finding a new doctor/practice/provider. Super hard in practice as they seem to be geographical monopolies a la the cable networks - providing appropria…

Is stupidity instead of hardship a legally valid claim? Are cognitively disabled people, unable to operate a smartphone, a protected class?

wcag has provisions regarding cognitive issues, I have been thinking about writing an article arguing that dark patterns being liable under accessibility laws - but have not really shopped it around.

Of course one thing is nobody wants to sue someone because they don't understand something, because they think it means arguing they are stupid.

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#548

People are writing this off, but it eventually becomes impossible not to own a smartphone; an expensive device, with an expensive monthly plan, and an absolutely terrible privacy record. Eventually more businesses will require smartphone usage just to use their services. There could even be a time when government services require it.

This has always been the case though. Before the smartphone, it was computers and internet; before that it was landline phone service. Both of the latter were far more expensive than a modern smartphone, so we are actually making progress in reducing barriers to social participation.

Landlines didn't spy on people. Computers and Internet, well, depends on which OS you are on, but there are options that don't. What about smartphones? IMHO that's the big issue, not what they cost.

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#549
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Utilitarian models of ethics are fraught with peril themselves. Not the own you think it is.

So are many other political and philosophical ideas—essentially any field involving ethics is fraught with perils and consensus is never fully reached. Just because unanimity is never achieved in respect of some philosophical idea doesn't mean it's not worthy of consideration and or it's never put into practice. Utilitarianism has been the subject of much study and debate and it's been widely practiced over several h…

You could just as easily have cited Aristotle or Augustine or Aquinas or any other philosopher who wrote an ethics. The previous commentator didn't invite a utilitarian-type response. He implicitly posed a question about the justification for the ordering of goods in society. Nothing about that statement is definitively answered (or even satisfyingly questioned) by big-U Utilitarianism.

Since you appear to enjoy a little bit of philosophical discussion, let's break down what you ackshually said:

> To answer that question with any degree of rigor one has to go back to the beginning and study the works of Bentham, Mill and others—and the many issues that surround utility and utilitarian principles.

The "beginning" of ethics hardly begins with Bentham or Mill or even the Enlightenment. Utility is quite a modern concept in ethics. The question of what is "the good" is presupposed in any system of value. "The greatest good for the greatest number" is perhaps one of the more perverse interpretations of human good on record.

> This involves such issues as the greatest good for the greatest number, greed overpowering well established moral norms and the fact that the majority of modern states and cities were founded on utilitarian models where a lot of give-and-take was involved before workable consensuses were achieved.

The majority of modern states and cities were most emphatically NOT "founded" on utilitarian models. Most states predate any notion of such post-hoc rationalizations. Cities were largely founded as commercial centers along trade routes or ports, or sometimes intentionally as colonies. States were largely the results of conquest by militarized groups that were certainly NOT utilitarian. Quite the contrary. In the bronze age, they would have simply been warrior bands centered around family/tribal bonds and vassal/suzerainty relationships founded on violence. By the time of the great early empires around the Mediterranean, formal structures of militarism and class privileges won through violence were the organizing forms of society, not "give-and-take" consensus gathering (unless you mean one group giving up the fight and the other either enslaving them or killing them outright).

Maybe you could have argued they are founded on something like Hobbesian social contract theory (certainly not Rousseau's version) but that, too, would suffer from being simply "not true in fact."

The main point that "obvious solutions aren't necessarily the optimal ones" suffers from being trivial, condescending, and a non sequitur. The commenter didn't offer a solution as such, but raised the obvious question of why they should have to pay for someone else's choices. Utilitarianism is the worst of all philosophical answers because it entails the most absurdities.

Re: 'The tyranny of apps': those without smartphones are unfairly penalised

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don't have 3 doctors let alone 3 which all use the same niche/bad customer facing software. Those that do should organize to make their displeasure known. Senior decision makers are probably incompetent boobs rather than compete assholes. If they live somewhere with 1 doc they should vote with their feet by leaving before the town finishes dying around them.

So we should condemn large swaths of the rural population to not only abject poverty, but remove health care access too? Is this what you're seriously arguing? That people should be forced to have a worse quality life, die earlier; all because they committed the crime of not living in a metropolis? Do you not see how people read this as completely heartless and devoid of empathy towards their fellow man?

Yeah I should move out of the subtropical rain forest and move back to urban asthma and traffic and crime, and noise.

The idea that my neighbors and I are gunna go picket the only person within 20 miles that can write a prescription is ludicrous.

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