Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wouldn't mind for English to have "standardisation body" akin to French or German one (or RAE for Spanish) that could maybe get rid of backward, dumb spelling ;) (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_spelling_refo... )
I’ve seen similar suggestions but one of the best things about English is that we don’t have that nonsense. It would just be a source of annoyance and consternation adding more noise to news and politics in the Anglosphere.
Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval
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Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval
#542Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, that could totally be by design. For example,the book "Rainbows End" is not "Rainbow's End" specifically because the meaning of the first is intended, not the second.
Though when it comes up in the book it's clear that it was a mistake (or a cruel joke) in that context.
Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval
#543Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wouldn't mind for English to have "standardisation body" akin to French or German one (or RAE for Spanish) that could maybe get rid of backward, dumb spelling ;) (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_spelling_refo... )
But those standardisation bodies often get ignored by most of the speakers. Language is a living thing that evolves and changes in spite of the dictates of academies. Also, with global usage, any given body is not going to be able to do much, e.g. a chilean spanish speaker won't care what the RAE says or a Quebecois would probably laugh at what the French language academy dictates.
Erm... curious that you brought that up as I lived in Chile for a couple of years and now in Spain. And while I agree that Chilean Spanish is wild it does follow RAE spelling guidelines, or at the very least I haven't seen any obvious deviations. Now there's a lot of modismos ("chilenismos", local words formed usually by borrowing from natives Mapuche in south or Quechua in the north) but they still tend to follow more-or-less spelling. Accent/pronounciation is yet another thing but that doesn't affect spelling all that much. And on top of that there is a lot of "mutilation" of words when using whatsapp (either being in a hurry or being from low social background) but even in even so slightly more formal setting people immediatelly fallback to official spelling.
(Spanish is more gracefull when it comes to spelling as "what you hear you write" and vice versa so maybe the problem is less pronounced)
Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval
#544Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wouldn't mind for English to have "standardisation body" akin to French or German one (or RAE for Spanish) that could maybe get rid of backward, dumb spelling ;) (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_spelling_refo... )
One reason English is so popular (aside from pure economics) and that other countries quickly adopt English slang words is because we don't have such a thing.
From my observation adoption of english (and it's slang) is mostly due to "verbal colonialism" - pop culture mixed with "we work in english" spiced with "I'm cool so I'll drop this pointless slang from foreign language"...
Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval
#545Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, apparently it makes you come off as a know-it-all in texting or DMing,and is therefore considered rude.
FWIW I think that anyone who seriously believes this needs to be told to just go fuck themselves, so if they choose to treat such style as "rude" and get offended, perhaps it's for the best after all.
Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval
#546Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wonder if the spread of English is because it's like a barycenter pulled by multiple languages, so not too far afield if coming from any of those languages.
My thoughts are that any language that can embed other languages in it has the capacity to be a global lingua franca. English was firstest with the mostest.
Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval
#547Earlier quoted context omitted.
> let smart quotes sort it out. Smart quotes fail in simple cases, too. https://gitlab.com/DaveJarvis/KeenQuotes/-/tree/main/src/tes... I've developed a lexer/parser that can disambiguate most cases, but wow was it a chore to write. > Well, and I'd suggest the unambiguous information was usually never there in the first place. Interesting. Isn't the text ambiguous because the glyphs lack the semantics to capture the…
> If UNICODE had semantics for apostrophes versus right single quotes, then our documents would be unambiguous. No -- as I said before, it's an input problem before anything else. There aren't separate keys for apostrophe and right single quote on the keyboard. We don't even have separate keys for left and right quotes. So even if there were encodings for them, they wouldn't be used correctly. They'd be used correctl…
I see where we have our wires crossed. I'm not considering the input problem because my software (KeenQuotes) parses the source document's apostrophes into their correct semantics (99.9% of the time).
My issue is that, having discerned the correct English single quotation mark (straight, apostrophe, or closing), I have no way of encoding it into a document that retains the semantics while typesetting it using common fonts (to match double quotes). My point is that if UNICODE had a way of capturing the semantics, it would at least be technically possible to create unambiguous documents, input notwithstanding.
Matthew Butterick, a typographer, states, "I’ve never seen any LaTeX-created documentation that’s gotten this right":
https://practicaltypography.com/straight-and-curly-quotes.ht...
I sent him a screenshot showing my software typesetting the quotation marks properly, albeit with a document that has incorrect semantics (as per our discussion):
Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval
#548Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If UNICODE had semantics for apostrophes versus right single quotes, then our documents would be unambiguous. No -- as I said before, it's an input problem before anything else. There aren't separate keys for apostrophe and right single quote on the keyboard. We don't even have separate keys for left and right quotes. So even if there were encodings for them, they wouldn't be used correctly. They'd be used correctl…
> it's an input problem before anything else I see where we have our wires crossed. I'm not considering the input problem because my software (KeenQuotes) parses the source document's apostrophes into their correct semantics (99.9% of the time). My issue is that, having discerned the correct English single quotation mark (straight, apostrophe, or closing), I have no way of encoding it into a document that retains the…
But that's not what Unicode is for. The apostrophe situation is just one of 100 things I could think of off the top of my head. Unicode encodes characters, not semantics. And this is by design, because people don't input, or want to input, semantics -- they just want to type something that looks right. Something other people can read, not something computers can semantically parse.
So we have a bunch of heuristic and AI and manual tools we use to try to annotate things semantically, and we put that information at the level of something like XML, not Unicode. Which is infinitely more flexible, because you can define and use whatever semantics you want, not limited to whatever the Unicode body decided.
If KeenQuotes gets apostrophes right 99.9% of the time, then just use that to automatically analyze all your input text and then store and process it in some kind of XML notation, like "Peter’s" or "Peter’s" or "Peter’s" or something. Unicode is the wrong level of abstraction.
Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval
#549Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’ve seen similar suggestions but one of the best things about English is that we don’t have that nonsense. It would just be a source of annoyance and consternation adding more noise to news and politics in the Anglosphere.
Dumb and inconsistent spelling is already a source of "annoyance" :P
I honestly don’t care if someone uses “color” or “colour” or makes ghoti jokes at the English language’s expense.
Re: Germans decry influence of English as 'idiot's apostrophe' gets approval
#550Earlier quoted context omitted.
The plural would regularly be Hopkinses in English. If I invited your family over, I would say the Hopkinses are coming. If I was going to your family's house, I would say I'm going to the Hopkinses' house. If you specifically were giving me a ride in your car, I'd say we're taking Don Hopkins's car. It's not a big mystery or even particularly complicated, all regular rules of pluralization and the possessive case. I…
In practice there seems to be some variation in how people write it. Wikipedia has "List of Anthony Hopkins performances" Guardian has "Anthony Hopkins' 20 best film performances – ranked!". The s's seems rarer but the Irish Times has "Anthony Hopkins's new prestige".