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Go is my hammer, and everything is a nail

maragu.dev

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Re: Go is my hammer, and everything is a nail

#541

Post by School-Cotton »

maccard wrote: post #206
neonsunset wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust: let results = foo .into_iter() .filter(|s| s.contains("banned")) .collect:: >(); C#: var results = foo .Where(s => s.Contains("banned")) .ToArray(); Convenient, easy to understand and fast.

I think Rusts terseness shows here - I think C#'s approach is the best. Also, if you don't use `.ToArray()`, you still have an IEnumerable which is very usable.

Also true in Rust. You don't have to use `collect` at the end and you still get an iterator.

    let results = foo
            .into_iter()
            .filter(|s| s.contains("banned"))

Re: Go is my hammer, and everything is a nail

#542

Post by tome »

kerkeslager wrote: post #378
RandomThoughts3 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I love Go so much. You want to write a very clever library using elegant abstraction and generics to have a cool innovative interface to solve your problem? Tough luck, you can't. So instead, you will just have to write a bog standard implementation with for-loops and good old functions which you will have to copy and tweak as needed where you really need something more complicated. It will work perfectly…

"Simple" is a cop-out word. Things can be simple along a lot of vectors. The vector you've chosen seems to be "does less for you" which taken ad absurdum would have you using assembly. Go does have elegant abstractions, and they aren't the simplest along this vector, nor would anyone want them to be. Coroutines, for example, are actually quite conceptually complicated in some ways. I prefer "understandable"--it appea…

> I think we agree Haskell is far too dogmatic about its abstractions when it's impractical to be used as a general-purpose language (because I don't think it's intended as a general-purpose language).

Originally Haskell was designed to be a language providing

> faster communication of new ideas, a stable foundation for real applications development, and a vehicle through which others would be encouraged to use functional languages

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/...

That doesn't necessarily imply general purpose of course, but today pretty much any language suitable for "real applications development" would be considered as "general purpose", I think. In any case, regardless of what Haskell was originally intended to be, I would say it is a general purpose language (and in fact the best general purpose language).

Re: Go is my hammer, and everything is a nail

#543

Post by derriz »

theshrike79 wrote: post #513
derriz wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least for Python dependency management, I'd hardly call it a mess these days and yes it was a horrible 10 years ago. The de-facto standard of venv and pip (using a requirements.txt file) is generally painless these days. To the extent that moving between MacOS, Linux and Windows is feasible for most (of my) Python work. And the Python 2/3 pain stopped being an issue a few years back. I haven't been forced because…

It still won't beat the deployment speed of scp executable user@host:direc/tory/ that you get with Go. I still use python for stuff that never leaves my computer, but in most cases if I know I need to run it on Someone Else's Machine (or even a server of mine) I'll reach for Go instead.

Sure but that's not going to work across platforms, right? So not really an apples to apples comparison.

Re: Go is my hammer, and everything is a nail

#544

Post by sethammons »

valzam wrote: post #317
skitter wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that list comprehensions aren't any easier to read. A proper streaming interface on the other hand lets you easily follow how the data is transformed: foo .stream() .filter(x -> x.contains("banned")) .collect(Collectors.toList()); As an aside, Go conflating lists and views irks me, in part due to what weird semantics it gives to append (e.g. if you have two disjunct slices and append an element to one slice,…

The problem with this is that people again get way to clever with it. it's not just stream -> filter -> collection, there will be a bunch of groupbys in there etc. If you have to debug or extend the functionality it's a nightmare to understand what all the intermediate representations are

Elixir gives you tooling to inline inspect

Re: Go is my hammer, and everything is a nail

#545

Post by tome »

RandomThoughts3 wrote: post #138
lairv wrote: post #105

Go is everything I don’t want in a language for my personal projects. It’s verbose, every simple task feels like a lot to write. It’s not expressive, what would be a one-liner in Python makes you write three for loops in Go. I constantly need to find workarounds for the lack of proper enums, lack of sum types, no null safety etc. I’m sure these are the exact reasons why Go is good for enterprise software, but for per…

That's why I love Go so much. You want to write a very clever library using elegant abstraction and generics to have a cool innovative interface to solve your problem? Tough luck, you can't. So instead, you will just have to write a bog standard implementation with for-loops and good old functions which you will have to copy and tweak as needed where you really need something more complicated. It will work perfectly…

> Go is basically anti-Haskell. It forces you to be less clever and that's great.

This is a bit of tangent, but I think it's worth pointing out the value in Haskell (at least as far as I see it) is not that it allows you to write "clever" code, but that it allows you to define precise interfaces. I suspect some people like Haskell because they can be "clever", and I suspect to be able to define precise interfaces you have to allow some degree of cleverness (because you need things like higher order functions and higher kinded types), but cleverness is not, in itself, the value of Haskell.

Re: Go is my hammer, and everything is a nail

#546

Post by okasaki »

theshrike79 wrote: post #513
derriz wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least for Python dependency management, I'd hardly call it a mess these days and yes it was a horrible 10 years ago. The de-facto standard of venv and pip (using a requirements.txt file) is generally painless these days. To the extent that moving between MacOS, Linux and Windows is feasible for most (of my) Python work. And the Python 2/3 pain stopped being an issue a few years back. I haven't been forced because…

It still won't beat the deployment speed of scp executable user@host:direc/tory/ that you get with Go. I still use python for stuff that never leaves my computer, but in most cases if I know I need to run it on Someone Else's Machine (or even a server of mine) I'll reach for Go instead.

At the expense of absolutely massive, gargantuan, entire-OS-sized binaries.

Just looking at my bin/ folder eg

    k9salpha - a relatively simple curses app - 56MB
    argocd - a cli for magaging argocd - 155MB

Re: Go is my hammer, and everything is a nail

#547

Post by imtringued »

sph wrote: post #419
bb88 wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2012: Python is Awesome! 2014: Python is a great language, but there are a few pitfalls 2016: Python is a good language with the right IDE, tooling, and process. The people are pretty cool though. 2018: I like python, but I wish more people used type annotations. 2020: You know, metaclasses are freaking awesome! They saved me so much work! 2022: Why can't people code the most obvious solution in python? 2024: Celery!…

2012: Python is Awesome! 2014: Python is a pain in the butt to manage packages and dependencies, how the hell am I gonna deploy this? It's still a mess 10 years later unless you live deep in the ecosystem and know what third-party solutions du jour to manage that complexity. At least we have Docker now. Also let's not forget the Python 3 migration fiasco that lasted ~2008-2018 and I still find myself porting librarie…

The only answer to is to use rye and I mean it. pyenv, pip, venv, pipenv, poetry, it's all crap.

(yes rye uses venv, etc under the hood, I know)

Re: Go is my hammer, and everything is a nail

#548

Post by imtringued »

_w1tm wrote: post #476
munksbeer wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and Java is shockingly bad too, although a lot of that is down to the way the JVM/language have been mismanaged This is interesting and not what I would expect. Generally to get a java app running from github you'd install the correct JDK and that should be about it. Many projects will use maven, which will know how to obtain dependencies. Could you describe a typical issue?

Does Maven come bundled with the SDK?

No but you can just use ./mvnw instead of installing it. I have never had to install gradle as a package on my computer in my entire lifetime. I always used ./gradlew.

Re: Go is my hammer, and everything is a nail

#549

Post by derriz »

shakna wrote: post #517
derriz wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least for Python dependency management, I'd hardly call it a mess these days and yes it was a horrible 10 years ago. The de-facto standard of venv and pip (using a requirements.txt file) is generally painless these days. To the extent that moving between MacOS, Linux and Windows is feasible for most (of my) Python work. And the Python 2/3 pain stopped being an issue a few years back. I haven't been forced because…

> The de-facto standard of venv and pip (using a requirements.txt file) is generally painless these days. Except Python themselves now recommend the third party, pipenv. [0] Which means that there are multiple authoritative voices saying different things, and that produces confusion. [0] https://packaging.python.org/en/latest/tutorials/managing-de...

That's why I deliberately described the pip/venv solution as a "de-facto" standard.

Is Python perfect in this regard? Absolutely not but the situation is FAR less painful than it was 10 years ago. The original comment claimed nothing has changed in 10 years. I used Python 10 years ago and disliked it intensely but I've recently (in the last 3 years) used it again and it is simply not true that nothing has improved in 10 years.

Re: Go is my hammer, and everything is a nail

#550

Post by vouaobrasil »

bborud wrote: post #94

People always under-estimate the cost of properly learning a language. At any given time I tend to have a "main go-to language". I typically spend 2-4 years getting to the point where I can say I "know" a language. Then I try to stick to it long enough for the investment to pay off. Usually 8-10 years. A surprising number of people think this is a very long time. It isn't. This is typically the time it takes to under…

That's true. I agree. Python is the only language I ever really learned to a deep level and properly, and it makes a huge difference! (And I'm still learning of course.)
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