Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available • Hacker News Board

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#541

Post by s1artibartfast » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 5:24 PM UTC

xboxnolifes wrote: post #514

s1artibartfast wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re your edit: I think we are discussing different magnitudes of Ubi. I would consider leaving a 200k job for 40k Ubi (which I think is a number more in line with what people describe. First off, my 200k salary would be taxed into effectively a 100k salary. I could live pretty well off 40k if I never had to work, so quitting my job would be a quality of life upgrade. I think a lot of my peers would consider the same.

I think 40k is way more than most UBI proponents are aiming for. It's certainly 3 times as much as I have bean mentally considering in UBI discussions. When I think UBI, I think paying for a shared living space and food. A minimum budget, not necessarily a comfortable budget.

I think that is a fundamental Gap between different people talking about this. The most upvoted response to this article was an argument that this isn't a real test of Ubi because 12K a year is a trivial amount and not enough to see results. Also keep in mind that this 12K was in addition to existing welfare programs, and most Ubi proponents argue that it would replace welfare

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#542

Post by literallycancer » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 5:26 PM UTC

sensanaty wrote: post #388

DemocracyFTW2 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with welfare today is that its a disincentive to work No. The reason you say that is because you're young and you believe what you've heard. You will soon cease to be the former and then presumably, likely, stop to do the latter. People want to work, they want to be useful. And yes, if I support you but threaten to stop supporting you as soon as you get to work for money—suddenly working for money looks…

The only reason I work is because I have to. I hate nothing more than the daily bullshit meetings and sprint reviews and all that other useless life-sucking crap. And I have it good, most people don't have the privilege of complaining from an AC'd home office while they tap away at a keyboard. No, most people work because that's the only way they get food on the table and survive, not because of some hilariously out…

Working on your own projects is also work. There's no reason why the term work should refer exclusively to working for an employer.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#543

Post by constantcrying » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 5:32 PM UTC

gopher_space wrote: post #538

constantcrying wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Germany shifted to a system that is as close to a basic income as you can currently imagine. It is free money for everyone. Everyone obviously excluding the people who work full-time and who are paying taxes so that "everyone" can live of Bürgergeld. >but especially for those relying on government money... Yes, those are the real victims here. Who else could be victimized by working full time, so that other people d…

> Maybe the real victims are the people who have to work full time and are suffering from the increased cost of living? If this was a genuine concern there wouldn't be so many people skimming off the top of every nation on the planet. We're surrounded by parasites and you're picking on people running calorie deficits for some reason.

>If this was a genuine concern there wouldn't be so many people skimming off the top of every nation on the planet. We're surrounded by parasites and you're picking on people running calorie deficits for some reason.

Wrong. The only way to go hungry here in Germany is by choice.

The people "skimming off the top" are not the ones paying millions upon millions in taxes. It is those who are to lazy to work, because they and their family get enough Bürgergeld, that actually working would lower their income. If you are able, but not working in some capacity, you are the leech and millionaires are paying for your leeching.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#544

Post by literallycancer » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 5:33 PM UTC

jajko wrote: post #385

bko wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the goal to get people to quit their jobs and get a nice apartment? Isn't it supposed to be a minimum base level of support? Why do we keep moving the goal posts? And if everyone quits their job and lives in a nice apartment, where is this money going to come from? The problem with welfare today is that its a disincentive to work. Start working, you lose your transfer payments. A lot of people are stuck in thi…

I love the "nice" part of apartment requirement, like some UN Geneva charter of basic human rights declaration. Especially when everybody should have it, like you can clone "nice apartments" ad infinitum so everybody has >150m2, beautiful terrace with view on lake or mountains, and of course while being in or very close to city center. I wonder what other basic "nice" stuff is a must have, we can go on for a long tim…

Most American housing is 2x4 garden sheds where if you stomp a bit harder the floorboards are gonna dislodge and you'll literally see the mud beneath your house. Also, most people in California can't afford to buy a house, let alone something up to current building codes (which are ridiculously lenient compared to Europe). So yeah, "nice" probably just means something that wasn't built in 1970. Imagine they said "liveable" if it works better for you.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#545

Post by kmerroll » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 5:37 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #159

david38 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, this is the single biggest problem with welfare. The woman wants to work, yet cannot because she can’t guarantee how fast she will move past the “no welfare and very little money” transition until she gets promoted to full time work. Her only recourse is to stay on welfare. Now the real issue comes to her children. If she managed to really instill in them the need to never be on welfare themselves, great, they…

That's how you breed shadow employment. People on welfare who can work often will find jobs that pay some, or all of the salary, under the table. The attitude this instills in children is that of having to work hard, while scheming against the taxman, to improve your life. Some people then do that way past the point they need to, and end up at risk of being caught for tax evasion.

>> The attitude this instills is that of having to work hard, while scheming against the taxman, to improve your life.

Sounds like a lot of politicians I know. Really, how is this not being "Smart" and gaming the system? If we're all upset about being "fair" then we would have changed the system.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#546

Post by talldatethrow » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

sdwr wrote: post #495

nkmnz wrote: post #460

The problem with this kind of test is that the people still live in a society where cheap labor is available to the companies around them that provide them with all the goods and services that they like to purchase with those $1000 (or whatever free amount they've gotten). Germany shifted to a system that is as close to a basic income as you can currently imagine. There are some strings attached, but considerably les…

This is the best critique of UBI I've ever seen (which is a little sad). I don't remember ever reading anything about the second-order effects before.

That's probably because the second order effects of UBI are obvious to anyone that's ever had a job. So you have the people that know the obvious, and the people that want to hide the obvious from the few that don't get it.

The covid handouts and raised unemployment benefits gave a sneak peak to anyone else that was blind.

Even things on the user market were on shirt supply and with high prices. In California the effective unemployment rate was something like $23+.. why would anyone sell their old lawn mower for $50 if you're getting $4000 to stay home? Why work painting houses for $4k a month when you got $4k to sit home. Magically everything cost double or more instantly... I wonder why.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#547

Post by sandworm101 » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

constantcrying wrote: post #484

nkmnz wrote: post #460

The problem with this kind of test is that the people still live in a society where cheap labor is available to the companies around them that provide them with all the goods and services that they like to purchase with those $1000 (or whatever free amount they've gotten). Germany shifted to a system that is as close to a basic income as you can currently imagine. There are some strings attached, but considerably les…

>Germany shifted to a system that is as close to a basic income as you can currently imagine. It is free money for everyone. Everyone obviously excluding the people who work full-time and who are paying taxes so that "everyone" can live of Bürgergeld. >but especially for those relying on government money... Yes, those are the real victims here. Who else could be victimized by working full time, so that other people d…

>> Who else could be victimized by working full time, so that other people don't have to work?

As when employees work full time so that shareholders can be given dividends? Part of me would rather a cut of wages go to support thousands of people on welfare who "don't have to work" rather than that cut go to a handful of billionaires who also "don't have to work". Our economy already supports an array of non-working people (retirees, disabled people, passive shareholders). So I'm not going to get hung up on the principal. We broke that glass long ago.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#548

Post by literallycancer » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

ssl-3 wrote: post #347

s1artibartfast wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it depends on your perspective and prior experience with people. There are a lot of people that dont engage in the rat race even when food, health, the material conditions of their children depend on. It seems like most people want a base level of UBI to be better than the conditions they have from working now. It also seems like the expectation for UBI is often even above the average US income of $37K, and t…

There are indeed plenty of people who can't or won't work. These people exist today, with or without UBI. And they will exist tomorrow, with or without UBI. And so what? These people are still human beings. They still deserve life: If dogs deserve no-kill shelters[1] then humans also deserve a life. They deserve a chance to live out their days, and to tell stories to their (perhaps prolific) kids and grandkids (who a…

Why do you think dogs deserve no kill shelters? Euthanizing stray dogs and other critters in urban areas is quite common throughout the world and most definitely a superior choice if you have a limited budget and would need to cut services for humans instead.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#549

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 5:43 PM UTC

rexpop wrote: post #500

jerf wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI creates inflation. I think anyone trying to deny that amounts to denying it because they really want UBI, and so they need it to not have that bad effect, but it does. You can't pour money into an economy without a productivity offset without inflating it. The theory is that productivity increases will in fact offset it. One way to prevent an increase in money causing inflation is to correspondingly increase the…

> an economy full of people who can't help get the economy back on its feet Because they're infantile, used to picnicking and playing their guitars, and devoid of industrial skills like lathe operating or CRUD app development? > You can't pour money into an economy without a productivity offset without inflating it. Isn't this even more egregious in the case of bank bailouts? Shouldn't that money have evaporated?

[deleted]

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#550

Post by jacobr1 » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 5:44 PM UTC

wordpad25 wrote: post #520

Aperocky wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as as close to a basic income as you can currently imagine. More like as far as I can imagine. Basic Income has to be provided to everyone , not just the ones who don't have a job. That's the whole point. It's not that the amount must be sufficient to live off of, that can be worked out later, but it has to start with everyone on board and that's what makes it "Basic".

isn't that just inflation with extra steps?

depends how much you claw back in taxes for higher earners