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Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

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Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#541
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That it works for you actually makes me feel less safe flying. Feel free to ask the flight crew next time you're on a 757. The service record of the 757 speaks for itself. I fly Iceland Air because their fleet consists of 757s. I literally bet my life on my work. > Boeing tried to blame the pilots The pilots were partially responsible. 1. First incident - the LA crew followed emergency procedures and continued the…

This comment seems to ignore all kinds of good practices in human factors engineering that are prevalent in aerospace.

Not sure what you mean, but pilots are trained to deal with runaway stabilizer trim. The EA pilots were also sent an Emergency Airworthiness Bulletin reiterating instructions on dealing with runaway stabilizer trim.

They're also trained to reduce thrust when they hear the overspeed horn, rather than continue at full throttle. Overspeeding the aircraft is extremely dangerous, and also makes it almost impossible to manually turn the trim wheel.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. People can disagree for other reasons than being an apologist. 2. Saying "1000%" like that is a bad comment , so don't assume the people that downvoted even disagree with you.

I know. Not sure whats worse, the rules or assuming I needed your explanation without being asked. Downvote away, its all a social experiment anyways...

So you were complaining about the wrong thing on purpose?

Even if I believe you, that's a bad social experiment. Stop wasting people's time.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couple of things: 1) Citation needed. Particularly if you're talking about federal inmates, state, or both. 2) It's disingenuous (re: primacy bias) to lead off with murder and rape, which account for a far smaller portion of "violent" crime than robbery (which I assume includes burglary, in which the victim and perpetrator don't make contact) and assault (which, again, does not require the victim and perpetrator to p…

> Citation needed. Particularly if you're talking about federal inmates, state, or both. I'm talking about both, but here: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html > It's disingenuous (re: primacy bias) to lead off with murder and rape, which account for a far smaller portion of "violent" crime than robbery (which I assume includes burglary, in which the victim and perpetrator don't make contact) and assault…

You're conflating inmate population with convictions, the latter being more salient in a discussion of plea deals. As another poster mentioned, these statistics are methodologically biased towards more serious crimes with longer sentences. That is, a convicted murderer or rapist goes through the trial process once (barring appeals) for a "spot" in prison that lasts 10-20 or more years. Multiple convicted robbers with short sentences would take an equivalent "spot" during the same time. They would account for a larger percentage of pleas/plea deals over time than a snapshot of carceral representation would suggest. That the figures are within a few thousand of each other, category-by-category, probably means that there are way more robbers and assaulters passing through prison than rapists and murderers. Which makes sense, if you put any stake in FBI arrest statistics.

>The 737 Max has caused a total of 346 fatalities in two crashes taking place in 2018 and 2019 [...]

I suppose that's one way of looking at it. Another is that a few hundred people committed murder in Chicago, usually with single-digit victims, and a good many of them are seeing prison time for their heinous actions. Meanwhile, a handful of high-powered executives and managers signed off on a small number of decisions that also lead to hundreds of death, along with multiple accidents that could have resulted in even more. Per alleged offender, these people have done far worse; dozens or hundreds dead each, depending on how you measure culpability. None of these people are so much as seeing the inside of a court room, let alone convictions or prison time. Boeing is not alone; officials from companies that have participated in much more destructive and heinous behavior stand with them in getting off scot-free.

It's a question of what we value our prison system(s) for. I would hope for efficient deterrence and rehabilitation. That is, sentences likely to dissuade people from committing crimes, and best efforts to prevent offenders from offending again. You seem to think that the street-level homicide rate is too high, and I'd agree. I would say that, as such murders are generally crimes of passion or disordered thinking - instinct or illness (psychological, social) rather than reason - harsh punishments are not necessarily useful in deterring them.

On the other hand, the deaths that Boeing has caused happened because of a purposeful decision-making process. It was hyper-rational. The failing was corruption. These types of moral (if not criminal) offenses stand to be deterred effectively with harshly punitive consequences; if the decision to put so many lives at risk is a cost-benefit analysis, simply make the costs outweigh the benefits. And, ideally, we wouldn't shield the perpetrators from indictment overseas, if the charges were similar to what we'd bring. What's happening is already a stain on our system - in fact, its lack of effectiveness calls into question its legitimacy - and you can add damage to international relations, that our carceral state is so out-of-wack and incapable of doing right by past and potential victims.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#544
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment seems to ignore all kinds of good practices in human factors engineering that are prevalent in aerospace.

Not sure what you mean, but pilots are trained to deal with runaway stabilizer trim. The EA pilots were also sent an Emergency Airworthiness Bulletin reiterating instructions on dealing with runaway stabilizer trim. They're also trained to reduce thrust when they hear the overspeed horn, rather than continue at full throttle. Overspeeding the aircraft is extremely dangerous, and also makes it almost impossible to man…

As an example, you said they “ignored” the over-speed warning. I would bet it’s much more likely that there was too much going on in the cockpit, likely with confusing or conflicting information, that prevented them from making the correct assessment in a time critical environment. Expecting the humans to act perfectly when the system is working against them is as bad of a design assumption as assuming your airspeed sensor will always act perfectly.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#545
post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also read the Boeing documents. The hazard analysis listed MCAS as hazardous. By Boeing process controls, that should have mandated redundant sensors. Why were they optional? Because that could increase profits. (Seattle Times has done good reporting on this).

Boeing indeed has a failure here, and is responsible for it. But as the first LA incident confirms, the pilots, by following their training, were able to deal with it. It was the subsequent flight on the same airplane that crashed. This remains omitted by the mass media, which contraindicates any of the reporting on it as "good". There is also responsibility in the production of a faulty AOA sensor, and the failure o…

I disagree. The media has covered the training (or lack of it) extensively. It seems like you want to point to a singular cause. As with most mishaps with complex systems, it’s the result of a cascade of failures. Training is only one part of the problem. Fixing that is still only an administrative mitigation which is the least desirable form of mitigation when designing a safety system. Even if the pilots had additional training, it wouldn’t fix the root cause of the issue and is just asking for trouble because administrative fixes “only” require humans to act perfectly in accordance with their training, all the time.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#546

Public sentiment is very much against Boeing right now, especially their current executives, oddly enough (since the previous ones were overseeing things when MCAS was created). But are there arguments for the other side on any of these incidents, and have they been explored completely? For example… Is Boeing really at fault for the MCAS related crashes? Both happened at airlines from the developing world, where the…

I don't think any of your arguments are left unexplored. They are inadequate to absolve Boeing of wrongdoing. The idea about unions sharing some blame is especially absurd and the suggestion of it makes your post very difficult to take seriously. Even if unions caused Boeing to become unprofitable, they are blameless in the decisions that led to the crashes.

> They are inadequate to absolve Boeing of wrongdoing.

How so? For example if staying competitive (and therefore surviving) forces you to squeeze through without recertification, isn’t that a sign that maybe there is a better version of the regulations that should be considered that doesn’t have bad incentives?

What about the well-documented reality that numerous pilots from airlines with higher requirements have had their planes experience MCAS trim but knew what was happening (since a wheel starts spinning in front of them) and were able to flip it off trivially? I’m not saying Boeing doesn’t share SOME of the blame, but it feels weird to me to ignore the fact that many pilots (literally hundreds) have had no serious issue with MCAS over hundreds of thousands of hours.

> The idea about unions sharing some blame is especially absurd and the suggestion of it makes your post very difficult to take seriously. Even if unions caused Boeing to become unprofitable, they are blameless in the decisions that led to the crashes.

Can you explain your view point more? To me it feels dismissive but I am trying to keep an open mind. In my view and the view of many Boeing friends, the unions have been abusive and created a big amount of avoidable expense and inefficiency to protect their own interests. I’m not making a claim as to whether that self-interest is ethical or not. But I’ve heard many stories of people not being allowed to do some trivial task because they have to wait until the person in a specific job shows up to do that task because of union rules that artificially protect unnecessary jobs. Those situations are difficult for management to overcome, since they have other things to spend time on, but they are real and do add to costs and time delays. That has to come from somewhere else in the company. I agree with you that the unions are not directly responsible for any decisions, but their effect is still real and can push the company into a corner.

These situations tend to be complex - it’s not as simple as pointing at someone who is evil and does bad things - which is why I think we cannot ignore these potential causes that are many degrees away or shared blame between multiple groups (including Boeing executives).

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#547
post #485
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long do you think it will take for Congress to fix the law? Until then, the ancestor poster's interpretation of "Don't worry, it's now legal for the judge and everyone else involved to get a nice present from Boeing, as long as it happens afterwards!" is more or less correct AFAICT (though I'd appreciate more educated opinions).

This ”congress is too slow” is an oft-repeated trope but completely wrong. What people like you don’t understand is that slowness is a feature, not a bug ! The first COVID relief bill was passed in less than a month. Because it had broad support and was urgent! Laws that have broad support are passed quickly. Laws that lack broad support are passed slowly or not at all. That how lawmaking should work!

This is at odds with studies done on the output of the american political process compared to public opinion

https://act.represent.us/sign/problempoll-fba/

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#548
post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a dumb proposal that benefits nobody. The only way to guarantee that Boeing becomes worse at making planes, is to ask them to stop doing it for 18 months and then start up again.

Fairness and equality before the law benefits everyone. But we live in a broken society where corporations have the rights of people (including political donations as free speech), but don't have the ability to be punished in a way that is at all aligned with what we inflict on actual people. This also means that punishment is largely not an effective deterrent for large companies, where the penalties when they're ca…

This is dated 2019 luxury vibe. Everyone else has gotten the memo grown up.

If you're fine actively sabotaging the US for your own pet grievances, go find some other country to live in and annoy.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Citation needed. Particularly if you're talking about federal inmates, state, or both. I'm talking about both, but here: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html > It's disingenuous (re: primacy bias) to lead off with murder and rape, which account for a far smaller portion of "violent" crime than robbery (which I assume includes burglary, in which the victim and perpetrator don't make contact) and assault…

You're conflating inmate population with convictions, the latter being more salient in a discussion of plea deals. As another poster mentioned, these statistics are methodologically biased towards more serious crimes with longer sentences. That is, a convicted murderer or rapist goes through the trial process once (barring appeals) for a "spot" in prison that lasts 10-20 or more years. Multiple convicted robbers with…

>You seem to think that the street-level homicide rate is too high, and I'd agree. I would say that, as such murders are generally crimes of passion or disordered thinking - instinct or illness (psychological, social) rather than reason - harsh punishments are not necessarily useful in deterring them.

I think this entirely depends on the circumstances around the murder. Was it committed by someone without a significant criminal record because they got angry about something? Or was it committed by a gang member as part of their criminal enterprise (in which case, it was not a "crime of passion" or a result of "disordered thinking", but rather sociopathic thinking)?

For the former, I agree that harsh punishments probably aren't that useful for deterrence, though they do tend to make victims (or their families) feel better. For the latter, however, I'd argue that long prison sentences, while they may not rehabilitate these hardened criminals, at least serve to keep them out of society.

To relate back to Boeing, I think their actions are similar in a way to those of people in violent organized crime gangs. They were done without conscience, and purely for material gain, so they probably should be treated similarly.

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