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Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

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Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#541

Post by pb7 »

devjab wrote: post #426
hiq wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

In Denmark we rarely perform tech interviews the way you Americans do. Part of this is because of how available education is, so virtually everyone who’s applying for a tech job comes with some sort of academic education, meaning that they’ve proven their worth to get it. I’ve worked a side gig as an external examiner for a decade now, I’ve got good confidence in anyone I haven’t failed. Another part is that tech int…

What are some noteworthy Danish companies that have created innovative products?

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#542

Post by helen___keller »

HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #529
ken47 wrote: post #347

Google is overrated. It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. You had talking heads yammering about how hard it was to get into Google, which to be honest, made the company even less appealing. Is this a software engineering company or some kind of hyped up nightclub? Yeah, maybe it's a hard interview if you'v…

I wouldn't characterize Leetcode interviewing as being biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class - it's biasing in favor of those (of any level of experience) who are willing to spend a few months practicing Leetcode. I thought that Google/etc had at least dialed this back a bit, or maybe just dialed back the "how many gas stations are in the US" type questions, after realizing this wasn't the best p…

> or maybe just dialed back the "how many gas stations are in the US" type questions, after realizing this wasn't the best predictor of good performance.

These problems (known as fermi problems) have been out of vogue for over a decade now. Google is one of the companies that pioneered algorithm-centric leetcode problems as a replacement for fermi problems.

Leetcode problems are not hugely useful outside of the data given by solving a fizzbuzz. Rather, it’s just another excuse so interviewers can convince themself a person is smart, call it signal, and justify a hire.

The last time Google gave me a job offer, one of my interviews was literally a souped up fizzbuzz - straightforward imperative code with no trick, no complicated algorithms, and no fancy data structures. I suppose that may be the reason I got an offer, that I didn’t need fancy algorithms that I hadn’t prepared.

Ultimately it’s impossible to know if someone will be a good hire from an interview. Being a good engineer requires a bunch of traits that simply can’t be tested. The leetcode interview, as I see it, acknowledges this weakness and instead chooses to filter out low-effort candidates, as anyone persistent can practice leetcoding and interviewing (in theory).

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#543

Post by mrtksn »

justanorherhack wrote: post #470
mrtksn wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's this phenomenon where employees earning higher than their friends and family OR at least doing work in a clean and safe environment tend to believe that they are not workers and they oppose regulations and unions because they feel like its beneath them. At the company of a friend of mine, the white collar employees do charity events for the blue colar ones and while the blue colar ones participate on labour d…

Nope. This is laughably out of touch -" I don't understand how certain people don't think like I do so they must be irrational." If unions were structured differently, there would be more incentives. People at large, in group form are much more rationale then academics want to give credit, they are simply following the incentives in their life and attempting to do what's best for themselves. Unions in the US are not…

Obviously all generalizations are wrong but this particular comment was well received. Must have rang some bells.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#544

Post by sumeno »

sjfjsjdjwvwvc wrote: post #296
ponector wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a business relationship, but they always trying to convince employees that it is not. That it is a family, a friendship relationship. You should be reliable, you should help everyone in your "family". If you leave your "family" abruptly it is a kind of betrayal. Also funny is brainwashing employees to think that HR is their fried, that HR can help with issues at work. It is a business. Do minimum amount of work…

Honestly a very depressing outlook. If I would really think this way I wouldn’t wanna work in this industry. The only times I was really happy and motivated at work was when I was working within a team where we were really friends - I’m still in contact with most of them years after the fact and some became really close friends - this was outside of IT though. Your line of thinking seems to be common in the IT indust…

> If I would really think this way I wouldn’t wanna work in this industry

I've got bad news for you about pretty much every other industry. They'll throw you away at the first opportunity to make the CEO a few more bucks too. It's the Jack Welchification of the American economy

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#545

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

ken47 wrote: post #395
hiq wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

I've seen plenty of HN threads where good alternative processes were described. I'm not going to be exhaustive here: writing a program over a few hours that is reflective of the kind of work that the company actually does, coming up with and debating the architecture of a system, mock code reviews, etc. You might say these don't scale as well as standardized testing of university classical algorithms knowledge. The g…

To your point, while I haven't interviewed with Google, don't they actually do a number of the things you're talking about (e.g. ask about system design or ask you to look at some existing code)? I'm guessing every interviewer isn't asking you some variation of "find a loop in a linked list".

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#546

Post by gdilla »

otikik wrote: post #108
nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

I see what you are saying. I am an engineer-turned-EM and you don't know me, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt: > Your job is NOT safe. Nothing will make execs happier than having this line of thought popularized amongst engineers. It will allow them to hire cheaper, and exploit existing engineers more. I think a better way to put it is: "A job is not your family, and a job is not your identity. Yo…

This. Your company is not every going to fix you, optimize your life, or be loyal to you. But you can take responsibility of all those things, and never let up. Get better, look for opportunities that satisfy what you value - always.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#547

Post by okdood64 »

rednerrus wrote: post #512

This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion but these huge salaries of the past 5 years have really hurt technology. Instead of the best, hungriest minds working on the best problems in the most agile way, they're languishing in one of these gigantic megacorps working at a molassess pace on some improved way to sell you ads.

This is not a hot take at all. Especially on HN.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#548

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

password54321 wrote: post #484
mcntsh wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that there are whole industries built on training these puzzles is a big signal that you're wrong. Also it's funny that engineers leaving Google, Amazon, et all NEED to practice these skills in order to get other roles because it just shows that these skills aren't needed (read: exercised, grown) working in their day-to-day jobs.

>The fact that there are whole industries built on training these puzzles is a big signal that you're wrong. Wrong about what? That they are easy? If you know binary search, sorting, sets, hash tables, recursion then it is easy. If you wanted to make it more aligned with what a developer does day to day the alternative is doing a small project in your own time which is more time consuming for everyone.

Leetcode "easy" questions are just common sense application of everyday algorithms and data structures. These might make sense for an automated screening test of "is this candidate lying about knowing the language".

But, then there's the ones that are all about specific techniques such as dynamic programming + memoization, or specific graph algorithms etc, etc. Any decent programmer can learn how to do these harder problems under time pressure (interview) through practice, but this is really about Leetcode grinding prep... these are not problems you would likely encounter in most jobs, and in the real world you'd just Google for algorithms or ask a colleague if you needed help.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#549

Post by whiplash451 »

intexpress wrote: post #178
whiplash451 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, unions can have devastating effects by ruining the relationships between the leadership and the rank-and-file. We are stuck in a self-reinforcing feedback loop where unions represent a very small portion of the employees therefore most employees avoid being associated with unions because it makes you look like an activist.

Google leadership has been doing a thorough job at ruining the relationships between leadership and the rank-and-file

My comment was about what is happening in Europe, not in the US.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#550

Post by matsemann »

speedgoose wrote: post #268
laurels-marts wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European I'm curious which unions and industries are you talking about? I've been working tech or tech-adjacent jobs my entire life here and I've never been in a union nor do I know any friends (developers / designers) that are in a union. And I'm going to conferences and meetups on a regular. I'm not saying unions don't exist (probably more so in certain industries), but for devs to be in a union in Europe? Nev…

It’s very common in Norway. Many IT people are member of NITO (Norwegian Society of Engineers and Technologists) or Tekna (Norwegian Society of Graduate Technical and Scientific Professionals).

Yeah, and Tekna a few years back was one of those pushing to get rid of the (now illegal) anti-competition contracts all employers made you sign. So while most people don't see them day-to-day (as in, they don't set tariffs and often don't negotiate your salary), they still influence a lot. And the salary statistics is very useful in leveling the playing field and getting what you're worth.

And the union deals on insurances, mortgage etc. saves me much more money each year than the union fee.

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