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Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

electrek.co

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Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#541

Post by kelnos »

waterheater wrote: post #337
gcanyon wrote: post #197

Because what could possibly go wrong hacking a hunk of metal that transports you at lethal speeds...

Everyone accepts a certain risk simply by driving, and we all have relative risk tolerance. Point in case: I knew of a 20-year-old driver who owned a nice, safe vehicle but was too afraid to drive on an interstate highway because they were afraid. That's not a "hunk of metal" issue but a risk-comfort "issue," which really is relative. Regardless, your point highlights the eternal fight between liberty and "safety and…

I think it makes more sense if you frame it that the manufacturer is required to sell cars with airbags. We don't, as a society, want people to have to make a choice between safety and cost in that particular situation, so we mandate that the manufacturer can't even sell without them.

Beyond that, if we assume airbags, on average, decrease injuries and deaths, then society also has an interest in helping to ensure that. Heavily injured and dead people put more of a strain on our health care system, and the costs for that are not solely borne by the person who gets injured or dies.

Certainly there's room for disagreement on whether or not all that is worth the added per-individual cost, the regulatory cost, etc. But let's remember that there are many things that, on first glance, seem to only affect an individual, but actually ripple out and affect others as well.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#542

Post by bigmofo »

jdjdjdhhd wrote: post #523
bigmofo wrote: post #513

I would have thought that EFF and FSF would be more active in trying to promote open source in automobiles for privacy, security and being able to repair and modify the vehicle. I would think that it would be rather mind blowing how much information is gathered by the new vehicles about oneself. I have enough money to buy any model of Tesla, but will not due to privacy, security and safety reasons. (I consider drive…

> I have enough money to buy any model of Tesla, but will not due to privacy, Which modern car do you think is not violating your privacy?

That would make for a good topic. Also, it is difficult to maintain older cars going when parts become harder to get. So, even if one does not want to buy a new car; at some point one might be forced to getting a newer car. I very much appreciate these hackers and hope that there will be a thriving and vibrant hacking community for new vehicles. I am personally not interesting in unlocking unpaid for features; but for privacy, security and safety reasons.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#543

Post by californical »

kbos87 wrote: post #394
kstrauser wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the end user, I couldn’t care less about a manufacturer’s costs. That’s a them problem, not a me problem. I understand your point. I just don’t care. They sold me a thing, and now it’s mine.

That strikes me as a pretty dissonant argument on HN. If we play that out, no software creator would have a defensible way to monetize what they invested time, energy and money to create. Enforceable laws protecting IP are the difference between entire sectors of the economy existing vs. not being worth the effort.

Ok, here’s a web software analogy.

I run a news website. I charge $2 to view the news website. You paid to view to my news website, thanks!!

Let’s say you really prefer dark mode, but my news website is bright white. You install something like DarkReader, to make it inverted colors, so problem solved!

But now I realize that this is a market that I could charge for. So I start charging $5 for “news site with dark mode”.

Should it be illegal for you to use dark reader to view my news website with your light-mode-only license?

Technically I’ve shipped you the text and style for my website, which you are completely allowed to access and have paid for.. Then you’ve modified it for your own use after receiving the product. Is that wrong?

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#544

Post by FireBeyond »

gibolt wrote: post #103
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm of the opinion that these two things aren't comparable. True, IBM and others have locked extra capability through software... but they were only ever selling/renting to the corporate world, which presumably had enough in-house legal expertise to not be completely dicked over. To take that business practice, and then try to foist it on consumers who don't have $500/hour lawyers on retainer looking out for them is…

What are you talking about... Tesla is one of only a handful of OEMs that can even issue OTA updates. Their cars from 2013 can still get modern features OTA. Please explain how you classify that as a train wreck compared to software cobbled together from 100 vendors (none of whom specialize in software)

> Please explain how you classify that as a train wreck compared to software cobbled together from 100 vendors

Tesla gets plenty of software from other vendors. And doesn't always test it particularly well - there was a story here of a firmware vendor who had a test harness that took ~36h to verify. They shipped a bug fix to Tesla, told them it was available...

... four hours later, "Great, this is awesome, looks like we fixed the issue."

???

"We just flashed one of the cars here and took it for a drive."

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#545

Post by edude03 »

eschneider wrote: post #402
m463 wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the disabling features of a used car has some nuances. 1) If tesla took possession of the used car and then sold it to you, I think they can disable features. 2) If you sold your car to someone, and THEN tesla disabled features I am not ok with that. With case #1, I think it is like any used car. People flip cars. They can take a car, remove expensive rims or other options and sell the car without them. Peopl…

Case 2 definitely has happened.

Here's a solid example - in 2016 all teslas came with free supercharging for life. In 2017 they changed it to be non transferable. If you buy the car directly from someone tesla won't know but there has been cases where they've found out (warranty repairs for example) where tesla then removed it.

If the seller didn't tell the buyer, or the seller themselves didn't know - who's fault is that?

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#546

Post by mahathu »

Ylpertnodi wrote: post #400
closewith wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dash cams are much more tightly regulated in the EU than elsewhere (you become a Data Processor and have all the responsibilities that comes with that). Private ANPR in public spaces is unlawful in I think every EU state?

Fucking hell, here we go again: "Dash cams are much more tightly regulated in some parts of the EU than elsewhere." It depends on the eu country of which there are several...including an ex-eu country. How it comes accross: One of the things i hate about America is that in new york all the californian building restrictions and zoning are killing free speech.

Preach it brother

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#547

Post by circuit10 »

hot_gril wrote: post #530
sdfignaionio wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Having a software unlock for hardware you already have (but didn't pay for in the price). Fine. Tolerable, perhaps, but pretty far from fine. It's pretty shocking to me that people in our society build things and then deliberately break them so they can make more money. Is this really the best system we can come up with? We have built a society where what is plainly crazy is rational.

> It's pretty shocking to me that people in our society build things and then deliberately break them so they can make more money. Is this really the best system we can come up with? All part of cost tradeoffs. Previously, they'd build the car with the ability to support all those add-ons even if the customer isn't getting them. Turns out it's cheaper not to do that.

I wish the solution was to just give everyone those features. Maybe it can’t work like that but this feels very wasteful

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#549

Post by kelnos »

Night_Thastus wrote: post #217
DistractionRect wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda get it. Rather than maintaining a supply of multiple parts which complicates your supply chain and install/repair procedures, Tesla is making cars nearly 100% identical physically and differentiating in software.

The supply and install problem clearly isn't that hard, auto makers have been doing it for many decades at this point. Plus, it seems backwards from a business standpoint. You always have the cost of installing the hardware, but now you only get a % of users who agree to pay for the additional cost? The only way to "fix" that is to artificially raise the price of the product so effectively everyone is paying, which m…

From the perspective of the manufacturer, having fewer model variations and factory/assembly configurations may end up saving more money overall.

They may also believe that there is a large-enough group of people who would decide not to get heated seats installed at purchase time, but would later regret that and wish they had it. The manufacturer might make more on "install hardware unconditionally and charge a fee for zero work later" than "install hardware later on demand".

The true cost of things to the manufacturer often depends on more than just the cost of that item and the direct labor cost to install it.

But I absolutely agree that we should applaud people who get around these sorts of software lockouts. If the company is going to give you a piece of hardware, it should be fair game for you to figure out how to get the most use out of it.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#550

Post by wizofaus »

kstrauser wrote: post #409
kbos87 wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That strikes me as a pretty dissonant argument on HN. If we play that out, no software creator would have a defensible way to monetize what they invested time, energy and money to create. Enforceable laws protecting IP are the difference between entire sectors of the economy existing vs. not being worth the effort.

I strong disagree. I'm not talking about making unauthorized copies of the car. I'm just going with the principle that's as old as the whole concept of property: once I buy something, it's mine. If I own a shoe, I can paint it to look different or change its shoelaces. If I own a book, I can tear out the pages and rearrange them. If I own a TV, I can hook anything I want up to it. And if I own a car, I can modify it…

But the carmarker is surely within their rights to refuse to continue servicing your car, or declare that any attempt at modifying the electronics/software potentially makes it unroadworthy.

Having said that, I don't entirely understand why Tesla don't keep the software unloaded from the vehicles until the user chooses to purchase the add-on features: compared to everything else the software does, that's not exactly a particularly difficult engineering challenge.

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