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Why I Left Rust

jntrnr.com

541–550 of 880 posts

Re: Why I Left Rust

#541
How come we can't have a technical discussion about reflection in a language without it degenerating into this kind of a shitshow?

And all the people who immediately started accusing rust of being "woke" are equally at fault here--don't think for a moment that I'm on your side. This whole thread is a disaster.

How did we get here in the first place that people seem to have religious beliefs over a language feature and want to scream at other people that they're heretics (and see the wailing and moaning in the Go community over generics for another example).

All of you, grow the goddamn fuck up, please.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the OP is actually saying is that he's extremely angry and pissed off that this was allowed to happen [...] But if he said that in no uncertain terms [...] he might fall afoul of the official Code of Conduct for being aggressive and threatening towards other contributors. So they need reverse psychology to express anger at injustice because of the Code of Conduct? What is this world we're building?

I'm tempted to add a CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md to my main project repo with the following: Be direct. No bullshit. Don't worry about offending anyone, including the project leader; just say what needs to be said about the technical merits of whatever is being discussed. We're all here to [insert project goal]; let's do so with a minimum of drama. But it's probably better to continue to not have a CoC, and just quietly lead…

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that adding something like that would make things worse and open the door to wasting your time on pointless issues like "Why are you using this code of conduct instead of $my_pet_code_of_conduct?", whereupon you tell them they're not working towards the project goal, which leads to even more drama. It's simply not worth it.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, open an issue about the code of conduct.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#543

Is it just me, or is this a lot of melodrama for a language. I love arguing over technical details, this seems more like "house wives of rust".

I knew the people who come up with a compiler and syntax which just screams drama would also love drama in their real lives. That's why I stick with Go. No drama syntax, no drama conferences.

This comment feels like it could be from the show Silicon Valley, in a good way.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#544

I was with you until this part: >It was JeanHeyd who called Rust out for having no Black representation among Rust conference speakers. Rightly so, as both the Rust organization and the conferences had little to no Black representation. Am I the only one that considers such arbitrary "diversity enforcement policy" horribly racist? No organisation should be "called out for a lack of - insert-race-here- representation…

I see where you're coming from and it's clear you have strong feelings on this matter. However, I believe there might be a misunderstanding here. The goal of diversity initiatives isn't about devaluing any particular group, it's about ensuring that the opportunities and benefits are more equitably distributed across different communities.

When someone mentions a 'lack of Black representation', they're not saying that non-Black members are less valuable because of their skin color. Rather, they're highlighting that there appears to be a systemic issue preventing people of that particular race from participating or advancing in that space. By addressing these systemic issues, we can make organizations more inclusive and more representative of the broader community.

Nobody is suggesting that people are exchangeable units defined solely by their skin color. On the contrary, it's recognized that everyone is unique and has a diverse set of skills, experiences, and perspectives to contribute.

This does not mean discarding merit or reducing people to their race, but rather acknowledging that societal, cultural, and systemic barriers have created unequal access to opportunities. The ultimate goal is to ensure that everyone, regardless of their race, has an equal opportunity to succeed.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#545
post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

>> The Rust project needs to stamp this out before it begins to fester. This is incredibly stupid behavior coming from what is being regarded as the next C++. >> Come on, Rust committee. Let's grow up here, shall we? It is too much power held by one group with too little accountability. More transparency is needed and more people from different organizations need to be involved. The fact that JT and the rest of us ha…

It seems like the problem here is not even power of one group, but an individual doing an end run around the group.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#546
post #266
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…

This whole exchange feels off. Essentially, the underlying spat is over a strong technical disagreement, but it is being prosecuted in this weirdly stylized language of emotion and abuse. I have no idea how something like this can be overcome so long as the core Rust community feels this is an acceptable way to handle things. Clearly this is something which extends beyond the immediate leadership team.

> I have no idea how something like this can be overcome so long as the core Rust community feels this is an acceptable way to handle things. Clearly this is something which extends beyond the immediate leadership team.

Do the Rust community really feel this is acceptable?

Everyone seems to hate it, so I can see that it's possible it's "just" bad leadership (which is a big deal of course).

Re: Why I Left Rust

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but what can be done then to avoid this "poor appearance" exactly? The black speaker pulled out. It's their decision to make. What can be done?

Continue on with the conference, learn from the current situation, and try again in the future. That's why I'm encouraged that this conversation is happening, because it's the path to the better future. The only really wrong response to this would be to shut down, close one's mind, and decide that the problem is the controversy itself, rather than the greater social situation of which this conference is just one smal…

> It's a programming language, it's not meant to solve social problems, after all.

But that's exactly what I'm saying as well. Not sure there's something to learn, that's what's confusing me here. Black people didn't attempt to speak at a Rust conference.

Well... OK? What's there to learn from that? As far as I'm aware, the Rust community is one of the most diversify-friendly ones out there already.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#548
post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An important distinction on their moderation style: --- It's not censorship, it's lack of resources. We're volunteers. When it's too much work to moderate a thread, we just nuke it from orbit. -- matthieum @ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/13tsmht/jt_why_i_left...

That's probably the worst way possible to handle it, worse than just leaving people to have their petty disagreements in the thread.

Why? If it's petty it is by definition unimportant, so it can only cause damage by scaring people away or reinforcing an idea of a toxic community.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. There was also the recent easily preventable drama [1] around the trademark guidelines some people left rust over. I don't really find any of this drama co…

[flagged]

Is there a similarly succinct but inoffensive word or phrase you would recommend instead?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#550
post #54
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ideology (culture!) is important. your second point seems trivial, after all let's assume that most of us live and act accordingly (manipulation is bad, and if there's something uncomfortable about a presentation, then it should be directly addressed, etc) but your first seems very interesting. can you please elaborate on who these grifters are, and how to identify them?

> how to identify them? They abuse their influence to demote a keynote selected by the agreed-upon keynote selection scheme, because it makes them “uncomfortable”.

According to the discussion in /r/rust/, one person falsely claimed that they were speaking on behalf of Rust team consensus and the RustConf representative they talked to got burned by taking their word for it rather than asking for confirmation.

I'm still trying to find confirmation of which message it was though. If it was the initial invite that was "issued without authorization", then the revocation would make more sense.

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