Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief • Hacker News Board

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#541

Post by cjmb » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 10:57 PM UTC

medler wrote: post #23

sandworm101 wrote: post #5

Standardized tests remain the only criteria totally in the control of the student. You can study for them and objectively do better, become a better applicant. Everthing else is either circumstantial or based in the opinion of others, mostly highschool teachers. If i had to rely on my highschool teachers' opinion of me i would not have ever gone to university let alone have won scholarships. Standardized testing allo…

> You can study for them and objectively do better, become a better applicant The thing is, attempts to measure the effect of test prep show they have little effect. According to these studies, SAT test prep courses might add ~30 points to your score: https://slate.com/technology/2019/04/sat-prep-courses-do-the...

did you read that link or just the subtitle?

quoting the penultimate paragraph (why are the relevant bits always buried?)

> Analyzing a 2008 survey conducted by the National Association for College Admission Counseling, he noted that one-third of respondents described a jump from 750 to 770 on the math portion of the SAT as having a significant effect on a student’s chances of admissions, and this was true among counselors at more and less selective schools alike. Even a minor score improvement for a high-achieving student, then—and one that falls within the standard measurement error for the test—can make a real difference.

Your link literally says: - test prep improves scores - most conservative possible study suggests ~25 point bump in score - college admission stats show this matters for many applicants

???

the fact that the piece ALSO says, later on:

> students who have a mean score on the math portion of the SAT around 450. According to the same admissions counselor survey, a 20-point improvement to a score in this range would have no practical meaning for students who are trying to get into more selective schools

and no kidding. 450 on either section is clearly not suitable for a college experience at a "selective school." You're expected to do multivariable calc during MIT's freshman year, regardless of major. 450 on math SAT means you can't do algebra.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#542

Post by gameman144 » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 10:58 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #534

gameman144 wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why even send students to school, if test scores are "totally" in the control of the student? Because the tests measure knowledge, and schools are intended to impart knowledge. As an analogy, my physical fitness is totally in my control: if I work out more, I'll build more muscle. But you'd never say "Why are you even going to the gym if your fitness is within your control?" If my local gym is really trash or I can…

> As an analogy, my physical fitness is totally in my control: if I work out more, I'll build more muscle. But you'd never say "Why are you even going to the gym if your fitness is within your control?" This isn't a good analogy. A gym is a mere building. I wasn't referring to schools as mere buildings, the walls, the halls, the roofs. I was referring to schools as the places where the students meet the teachers. > S…

> A gym is a mere building.

> I was referring to schools as the places where the students meet the teachers.

I think for any gym with personal trainers, this is still a pretty one-to-one analogy.

> How successful do you expect most children would be with entirely self-directed learning? No teachers, no tutors, not even parents. That's what I meant.

Ah, I think I might have been missing your point here -- essentially does it boil down to "If tests are all that we're measuring, what's the point of all the grading and process that schools go through", to which the answer is presumably "Tests aren't all that matters"? If that's the case, we probably agree here (in that learning is the thing that matters, and schools might perform a lot of functions which don't map to test scores, but might map to better learning).

LMK if this is still off base, though.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#543

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 10:59 PM UTC

QuarterReptile wrote: post #415

rayiner wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it is a brilliant way to use regular affirmative action for Blacks as a weapon to ensure that rich white elites always win and do not compete with the “deplorable” poorer whites, the Asians and immigrants. I just realized that there are more Appalachians in America than Asian Americans. But how many people have you run into in an elite school with an Appalachian accent? (Or a southern or mid-atlantic, or other l…

I can think of exactly one guy: a classmate in electrical engineering courses who was from Kentucky. While you can obviously still find accents in the US, there are lots of reasons why you won't run into that family of accents much. Just about everyone in the US can avoid accents they don’t want by engaging in all forms of audible media, and social climbers and people who move around will avoid strong accents. Those…

[deleted]

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#544

Post by WalterBright » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 11:01 PM UTC

nobodyandproud wrote: post #526

WalterBright wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the data Keep in mind that I attended in the 70s. Nothing stays the same. I have little idea if Caltech is the same today as then, and rather doubt it. One obvious change is their mission statement has changed drastically. In the 1978 "Caltech Information for Students" pg 105 it says simply: > The primary purpose of the undergraduate school of the California Institute of Technology, as stated by the Trustees, is "t…

If college is the only way to make a good living, then rational actors will game and lobby their way to getting in. Even in the 1990s, a CS program was easy to get into and a local 4 year degree was sufficient for most lines of work.

At least in the 70s, if you gamed your way into admission at Caltech by doing test prep, coaching, having someone else do your application essays, etc., you were going to be sorry. Because you would find it impossible to do the work required. Caltech did a good job of screening because the ones they admitted could do the work (though a lot dropped out simply because they didn't want to work). But there were a few that couldn't, no matter how hard they worked at it, and just wound up leaving.

A friend of mine dropped out of Caltech after a couple years, and disappeared. I ran into him many years later, and we did some catching up. 10 years after dropping out, he asked Caltech if he could come back and try again. They said sure (one of the nice things about Caltech's philosophy). He got straight A's. I asked him if he had gotten any smarter, he said no, he was just willing to work the second time around.

Of course, there were some students who just effortlessly aced everything. Hal Finney (yes, that Hal) was one of them. Being around people like that was just amazing.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#545

Post by rayiner » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 11:03 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #531

rayiner wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's part of it, but as an Asian American immigrant myself, the stereotypes aren't really far off. "Tiger parents" is an American characterization of how Asian families are generally structured: parents (who have knowledge and life experience) dictate to kids (who lack both). Dating and relationships are discouraged (freeing up huge bandwidth for studying) while marriage is expected (heading off the tendency for ex…

How does one study for the SAT, would you say, and what impact do you believe that studying has?

The SAT assumes a baseline vocabulary and familiarity with basic logic, which a lot of kids don't meet now that so many people take the test. My score went up by 120 points from my first practice test in 8th grade to the real thing in 11th grade, but some of that was just covering the ground on the expected high school math and vocabulary.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#546

Post by csa » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 11:04 PM UTC

Jiro wrote: post #507

csa wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds like you're buying into Harvard's argument that "asian applicants are systematically less likeable / weaker in intangible attributes" which is racist nonsense in my opinion. Please don’t put words into my mouth that I did not say (and certainly don’t think). Note that I had a positive experience living in Asia for 9 years, and I am currently active in Asian communities in Asia as well as the Asian-America…

>First, using Harvard as an example, 25-28% or so of the entering class is Asian. Given that Asians-Americans are about 6% of the US, this hardly smacks of systemic racism. Something doesn’t add up with this argument. There's a larger percentage than the whole population of the US, but a smaller percentage than the percentage who apply and have similar qualifications to accepted students who aren't Asian. What you're…

> What you're seeing is that Asian-Americans are better qualified, but not enough of them are accepted as one would expect from being better qualified.

Please reread my entire comment.

I covered your thesis, and I am fairly certain that it is an inappropriate characterization of the reality.

Specifically, every study I have seen that makes this claim determines that Asians are “more qualified” based exclusively on a comparison of SAT scores and/or grades.

Grades and SAT scores are only one factor of many that are used in admissions decisions.

As I have said before, some folks may not like that more than grades and SATs are used in admissions decisions, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

Let me give you an example of a profile I see a lot:

- 800 math 780 verbal on SAT.

- Top 5 in class taking a strong academic curriculum. Not valedictorian because of a few differences of a + or - here and there attached to their straight As.

- Played instrument in band and marching band for 4 years.

- Wrote articles and took photos for school newspaper and yearbook.

- Volunteer in school volunteer group that actually did some decent work.

Using the guidelines in the link below, how would you rate this applicant?

https://veritasessays.org/college-admissions-blog/posts/type...

1. Academics — solid 2. Definitely not 1, since there is no indication of “genuine scholar” like published research or a Westinghouse award or something similar.

2. ECs - Squarely 3. Did some stuff, but no leadership or substantial impact.

3. PQ — Let’s say 2, but this could be a 3 if their school does not know how to write good recommendations for elite schools and/or if the applicant did not impress the right people. Note that there is nothing about low SES or other challenging conditions that might make them a solid 2 or even a 1. Frankly, in our case, it doesn’t matter.

4. Athletics — Marching band is basically a sport. Let’s say 3. If they were just in band, that would probably fall under ECs, and this might be a 5. Note that there is no expressed desire to be in the Harvard band, and there is no quality measure (like winning a competition) that suggests that they could be good enough, so 1 and 2 are out of the question.

So… is this person an admit?

Probably not. This is almost a perfect “standard strong” — nothing wrong with them, but nothing stands out. Note that their grades and scores only got them a 2 in academics, and there are a lot of other 2s out there in the applicant pool.

They probably won’t get in unless they have some other highly desirable trait like geographic diversity, racial diversity, recruited athlete, director’s list, or child of faculty.

Anyway, I hope that people stop perpetuating the myth that “better qualified Asians” are not being accepted. A more accurate statement is “asians with higher grades and SAT scores are not being accepted because they are not excelling in other areas that are explicitly mentioned as part of the evaluation process”.

Note that those folks (Asians and otherwise) who have good grades and good SAT scores as well as excel in other areas are much more likely to be accepted.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#547

Post by hijghula » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 11:09 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #504

mynameishere wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we have no data either way that can even begin to address whether one group is innately better than any other Does all of world history count as data? What should we go by? Propose a test.

Given that I said we have no data that can begin to address this question, it is at best disingenuous. Because how can I offer a test without data? It is true that all of world history is data, but it is not necessarily data that can answer any particular question. The problem is the age-old nature versus nurture debate. Both genetics and environment are important to IQ. Both generally affect IQ through long, convolu…

You accept that some people run faster ("uncontroversial") but somehow it is "unknowable" whether some people think faster?

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#548

Post by hijghula » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 11:10 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #519

jlawson wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The scientific truth is that we have no data either way that can even begin to address whether one group is innately better than any other. The reason being that we have no way to separate out the impact of racism and history from innate ability. I'm sorry but this is blatantly false. "Innately better" is a vague and inflammatory term, but if you define the measure, we can use straightforward statistical techniques…

Separating out confounders is easier said than done. When you look at the performance of black people raised in white families they are still exposed to media, teachers, and peers who have expectations of them based on appearance. Even with that population, racism remains a confounder. Likewise while you can look at historical Jews as a poor population with high IQ, you have the confounder that even then Jews placed…

Culture largely flows from genetics, so I'm not quite sure what you are getting at.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#549

Post by Steuard » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 11:13 PM UTC

Reading this is really weird for me. Worthwhile and eye-opening, but also baffling: I am literally the chair of the faculty committee at my small college that voted a couple of years ago to go test-optional (provisionally but with an eye toward making it permanent). I won't claim to be an great expert on the issues involved, beyond generally trying to keep up with the broad conversation about research outcomes: we're too small for any of us to specialize enough to get into the weeds of specific studies and methodologies outside of our fields (I'm in physics).

From all I've read in the past, though, standardized test outcomes are very strongly correlated with family wealth. The kids who have great SAT vocabularies are overwhelmingly the kids who grew up with parents with plenty of free time to read to them every day. High scoring kids are overwhelmingly the ones whose families could provide lots of educational support (either through direct help from available parents or through private tutoring). They're so very often the ones who spent weeks of their lives getting dedicated training in the otherwise-useless skill of "how to take a standardized test". And the correlation between SAT score and college success (by whatever metric) is IIRC quite low once you control for family background. So by and large, the faculty members that I know have come to see standardized testing as precisely a tool to give preference to kids from wealthy, privileged backgrounds.

Obviously the author of this article had a very different experience! And clearly there are kids out there who can use standardized tests to demonstrate amazing competence beyond what their grades show. (That's why we went "test optional" rather than "no tests allowed", for what it's worth.) And I'm not at all surprised that admissions essays correlate even more strongly with wealth than do SAT scores. (We don't rely entirely on essays, either.) Maybe we really did get it wrong, and the research we considered really was misleading, and universal testing would raise up more underprivileged students than it threw down. But I promise you, I absolutely 100% promise you, that no person in that room where we made the test-optional decision believed that the outcome of our decision would be fewer students with challenging backgrounds being admitted.

So is the claim here that the college decision makers adopting these policies are also dupes of "the chattering class"? (Aren't we supposedly a part of that class?) Or maybe it's just that I, personally, was the dupe of my faculty colleagues, who were conniving behind my back to get less competent students in their classes? I don't get it.

The only conclusion I can draw, in general, is that it is really hard to disentangle an individual student's intrinsic potential and preparedness from the influence of family wealth and resources. I agree with this author that there really are enormous systemic biases that encourage class segregation, and those biases are viciously wide-ranging and flexible and are embedded across all axes of achievement and opportunity. So I'm not particularly happy about the way that this essay very explicitly assumes bad faith on the part of those of us struggling to find a way to make things better.

[I'm posting this late enough that it'll probably never be seen, but given my connection to the subject I still feel compelled to chime in.]

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#550

Post by sokoloff » Sun, Mar 05, 2023, 11:14 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #219

whack wrote: post #120

The following paragraphs were especially powerful: > The chattering class is using poor kids as pawns to eliminate standardized testing. Which helps their own kids. Rich kids who “don’t test well.” But they know how to strategically boost their GPAs, get recommendation letters from important people, stack their resumes with extracurriculars, and use the right slogans in their admissions essays. They have “polish.” >…

I used to think standardized tests were the way to go, but... My kid recently went through another testing gauntlet, which is the 11+ test. For those who aren't in the Southeast corner of the UK, this is a multiple choice type test that looks a lot like an IQ test in some ways. It's a single sitting and determines whether you are allowed into something called a Grammar School, which is just a selective school, and th…

If you’re trying to gauge what students will get the most from special schooling, the ones who prepped and studied for the test are probably the ones who are going to do the same if afforded the special school.

Teacher recommendations are incredibly easy to game. I asked my teachers for recommendations and, to help jog their memory and for their convenience, provided them a sample letter of recommendation that I wrote. They could sign and send that one, use the content as a reminder to write their own, or start from scratch.

I’m quite sure that money or services have changed hands for a recommendation in the past, probably more frequently than stand-ins have taken standardized tests.