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Bard and new AI features in Search

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Re: Bard and new AI features in Search

#541

Lotus 123, Borland and Wordperfect were at the top of the software world. They failed to make the transition to GUIs/Windows. Microsoft missed the arrival of the web. Microsoft also missed the mobile revolution and ended up with zero mobile operating system market share. Internet Explorer, having vanquished Netscape, declared "job done" and stopped developing the web browser further, only to be cast to irrelevance fo…

"Microsoft also missed the mobile revolution"

I remember getting a Windows Mobile phone and loved it. Their UI (tiling etc was cool) was superior to iOS and Android at the time ( at least for me). I was sad to see them disappear.

Re: Bard and new AI features in Search

#542
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, so Page and Brin might think that they can pull the same trick again.

Page and Brin's original crawler had the issue, but they were unable to fix it, and it was Jeff Dean and Sanjay Gupta that rewrote the crawler so that it and the index storage would be hardware fault tolerant.

The crawler doesn't interact directly with pagerank. PageRank is computed later and is attached as a per-document value.

I asked Jeff about what it was like in the early days and he told me: when they first joined, the entire crawl to index to serving stack was documented in a README that you would follow, typing commands and waiting for each step to complete. A failure in a step meant completely starting over (for that step) or even earlier, depending on how and where temp data was materialized.

He said he and Sanjay (Ghemawat, not Gupta) then wrote mapreduce as a general purpose tool for solving multiple steps in crawl to servable index. Not only is mapreduce good at restarting (if the map output and the shuffle output are persistent), the design of mapreduce naturally lends itself to building an indexing system.

If you go back to the old papers you'll see several technologies mentioned over and over. protocol buffers, recordio, and sstable: the first is an archive format to store large amounts of documents in small number of sharded files, the second is a key-sorted version of the same data (or some transformed version of the data). So, building an inverted index is trivial: your mapper is passed documents and emits key/value pairs (token, document) if a token is in the document. The shuffler automatically handles grouping all the keys, and sorting the values, which produces a fairly well-organized associative table (in the format of sstables).

BigTable came about because managing lots of sstables mutably became challenging. | MapReduce was replaced with Flume, which was far more general and easier to work with, and BigTable was replaced with Spanner (ditto), and GFS replaced with Colossus, but many of the underlying aspects of how things are done at Google in prod are based on what Jeff, Sanjay, and a few others did a long time ago.

Note that mapreduce isn't particularly innovative except the scaling aspects were fairly esoteric at the time.

Re: Bard and new AI features in Search

#543

I agree this is bland corporate speak. But it reminded me of a question that's been floating around: A number of pundits, here on HN and elsewhere, keep referring to these large language models are "google killers." This just doesn't make sense to me. It feels like Google can easily pivot its ad engine to work with the AI-driven chat systems. It can augment answers with links to additional sources of information, be…

And that's exactly why the CEO of Google published the blog post about Google + AI, because they don't think AI is a potential Google killer. /sarcasm Yes, they took the risk seriously and that's great. However, Google's lack of good UX will probably produce a monstrosity of a tool that no one will use. The only usable parts will be what's embedded in the Google Search engine.

Re: Bard and new AI features in Search

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So my question is, how hard of a problem is that with LLMs? I get the sense that LLMs are trained on a very large data set all at once, but that it is difficult to incrementally update them with new data. It's the opposite. Getting an LLM to learn the basics of grammar and paragraph-level language structure is the "hard" part. Once you have that, further fine-tuning, specialisation, or other incremental changes are…

It's not about "Well behaved." All we're teaching it is our biases.

Right now, "well behaved" means "crudely beaten into submission". I can only imagine what kind of horrible stuff future AI products will do if we keep twisting them into giving "friendly" output https://twitter.com/cirnosad/status/1622407343358214146

Re: Bard and new AI features in Search

#545
At this point, Microsoft should do whatever it can to make a deal with Apple to place a ChatGPT powered platform in the iPhone/i Devices.

Most of the people using "computers" nowadays do it through mobile phones, and Google has a strong grip in that market with Android, with only Apple giving them some competition. Thus the only platform where Microsoft could really compete is in iOS.

If Microsoft + Apple could get together in this one, they could do a really killer app doing a next level Siri or similar.

Otherwise, What would Microsoft do? Add ChatGPT to Windows? that means PCs ... that means a Office/work related agent, which is boring and kind of reminds me of the Mac vs PC video-ads of 2000s.

Re: Bard and new AI features in Search

#546

Question for AI experts out there: ChatGPT is awesome, but it is obviously hamstrung by the fact that it crawled the web at the end of 2021, so all of its data is essentially "frozen" and it doesn't "know" of any topics that occurred after 2021. Seems to me like the next "holy grail" in large language models is building a model that can be continually updated. If Google can achieve that, I think they could leapfrog O…

I am not sure but this did trigger a vision of a dystopian sci-fi world where governments attempt spike each others AI with false training data to control narratives. Google can leapfrog OpenAI because they are the entry point for 99% of users attempts to answer questions online. Similar to how websites for x (weather, lyrics, etc.) existed for years but the second google baked them into search those sites dried up.

> Similar to how websites for x (weather, lyrics, etc.) existed for years but the second google baked them into search those sites dried up.

But weather, lyrics, etc. websites are specialized at what they are doing and Google is just trying to do basics of aforementioned services in hope they will appeal to casual Web users.

Re: Bard and new AI features in Search

#547

I agree this is bland corporate speak. But it reminded me of a question that's been floating around: A number of pundits, here on HN and elsewhere, keep referring to these large language models are "google killers." This just doesn't make sense to me. It feels like Google can easily pivot its ad engine to work with the AI-driven chat systems. It can augment answers with links to additional sources of information, be…

I don't think most people realize how much infrastructure separates something like ChatGPT from Google-scale deployment. OpenAI isn't suddenly building transoceanic fiber and datacenters near most major population centers. They aren't signing production-ready contract vehicles with most major OEMs and governments. And in the gap it would take a new entrant to acquire 10% of those assets, Google has 100,000 engineers…

Google cannot make a good SMS app for Android. They will never be able to launch a simple chat bot. What they will launch will be a monstrosity. The only Google AI product that people will use is any AI embedded within their existing apps and services...which is a great thing, but I wouldn't bet on Google being able to launch any new product that would have a decent UX.

Re: Bard and new AI features in Search

#548

Question for AI experts out there: ChatGPT is awesome, but it is obviously hamstrung by the fact that it crawled the web at the end of 2021, so all of its data is essentially "frozen" and it doesn't "know" of any topics that occurred after 2021. Seems to me like the next "holy grail" in large language models is building a model that can be continually updated. If Google can achieve that, I think they could leapfrog O…

ChatGPT 4 seems to have newer data/practices already. At least the Bing ChatGPT integration can get data from websites and all of that, and cite the sources. Probably using REALM. Not sure if is ChatGPT-4 that would use REALM together or if is MSFT integrating both. https://medium.com/@owenyin/scoop-oh-the-things-youll-do-wit... Similar to how http://perplexity.ai/ works to get info on current data.

ChatGPT 4? I didn’t even think they’d announced v2 yet. Source?

Re: Bard and new AI features in Search

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So my question is, how hard of a problem is that with LLMs? I get the sense that LLMs are trained on a very large data set all at once, but that it is difficult to incrementally update them with new data. It's the opposite. Getting an LLM to learn the basics of grammar and paragraph-level language structure is the "hard" part. Once you have that, further fine-tuning, specialisation, or other incremental changes are…

Hmm. Do you also need a way to "forget" things? Like - hmm. I could see taking a snapshot after the grammar/language stuff is in, and then every N weeks retraining on the current web, adding in something about recentness, but that doesn't seem like "continuous" training. I'd imagine "continuous" training would be, well, going on continuously, all the time, but that would mean that, to include "recentness", something…

Well, according to Europe's Right to Forget, these AIs have to forget some stuff about you if you ask them to :)

Re: Bard and new AI features in Search

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the Microsoft partnership. MS has a 48% stake in OpenAI and provides all the infrastructure through Azure, including purpose built machines for model training. Microsoft has also launched GitHub Copilot, summarization features in Teams, and is widely reported to be adding GPT features to Bing.

Google has far more resources for training models and inference. Likely more than all their nearest competitors combined.

If you’re talking about physical hardware, Google pales in comparison to Amazon, and Gcloud is still smaller than Azure. It’s possible google’s private compute makes up for the Azure difference but it’s not like they’re in different leagues in terms of access to hardware.
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