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Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

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Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#542
post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, dang! I wonder if it makes sense to add a summarized version of your critical point on "effects, not intent" to the HN guidelines. Though, I fear there might be undesirable ill effects of spelling it out that way. Thanks (an understatement!) for this enlightening explanation.

There are so many heuristics like that, and I fear making the guidelines so long that no one will read them. I want to compound a bunch of those explanations into a sort of concordance or whatever the right bibliographic word is for explaining and adding to what's written else where (so, not concordance!)

Fair enough. Yeah your plans of "compounding" and "bibliographic concordance" (thanks for the new word) sound good.

I was going to suggest this (but scratch it, your above idea is better): A small section called "a note on moderation" (or whatever) with hyperlinks to "some examples that give a concrete sense of how moderation happens here". There are many excellent explanations buried deep in the the search links that you post here. Many of them are a valuable riffing on [internet] human nature.

As a quick example, I love your lively analogy[1] of a "boxer showing up at a dance/concert/lecture" for resisting flammable language here. It's funny and a cutting example that is impossible to misunderstand. It (and your other comment[2] from the same thread) makes so many valuable reminders (it's easy to forget!). An incomplete list for others reading:

- how to avoid the "scorched earth" fate here;

- how "raw self-interest is fine" (if it gets you to curiosity);

- why you can't "flamebait others into curiosity";

- why the "medium" [of the "optionally anonymous internet forum"] matters;

- why it's not practical to replicate the psychology of "small, cohesive groups" here;

- how the "burden is on the commenter";

- "expected value of a comment" on HN; and much more

It's a real shame that these useful heuristics are buried so deep in the comment history. Sure, you do link to them via searches whenever you can; that's how I discovered 'em. But it's hard to stumble upon otherwise. Making a sampling of these easily accessible can be valuable.

[1] 3rd paragraph here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27166919

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27162386

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#543
In the real world, when you're unhinged, annoying, intrusive...you face almost immediate negative consequences. On social media, you're rewarded with engagement. Social media owners "moderate" behavior that maximizes the engagement they depend on, which makes it somewhat of a paradox.

It would be similar to a newspaper "moderating" their journalists to bring news that is balanced, accurate, fact-checked, as neutral as possible, with no bias to the positive or negative. This wouldn't sell any actual news papers.

Similarly, nobody would watch a movie where the characters are perfectly happy. Even cartoons need villains.

All these types of media have exploited our psychological draw to the unusual, which is typically the negative. This attention hack is a skill evolved to survive, but now triggered all day long for clicks.

Can't be solved? More like unwilling to solve. Allow me to clean up Twitter:

- Close the API for posting replies. You can have your weather bot post updates to your weather account, but you shouldn't be able to instant-post a reply to another account's tweet.

- Remove the retweet and quote tweet buttons. This is how things escalate. If you think that's too radical, there's plenty of variations: a cap on retweets per day. A dampening of how often a tweet can be retweeted in a period of time to slow the network effect.

- Put a cap on max tweets per day.

- When you go into a polarized thread and rapidly like a hundred replies that are on your "side", you are part of the problem and don't know how to use the like button. Hence, a cap on max likes per day or max likes per thread. So that they become quality likes that require thought. Alternatively, make shadow-likes. Likes that don't do anything.

- When you're a small account spamming low effort replies and the same damn memes on big accounts, you're hitchhiking. You should be shadow-banned for that specific big account only. People would stop seeing your replies only in that context.

- Mob culling. When an account or tweet is mass reported in a short time frame and it turns out that it was well within guidelines, punish every single user making those reports. Strong warning, after repeated abuse a full ban or taking away the ability to report.

- DM culling. It's not normal for an account to suddenly receive hundreds or thousands of DMs. Where a pile-on in replies can be cruel, a pile-on in DMs is almost always harassment. Quite a few people are OK with it if only the target is your (political) enemy, but we should reject it by principle. People joining such campaigns aren't good people, they are sadists. Hence they should be flagged as potentially harmful. The moderation action here is not straightforward, but surely something can be done.

- Influencer moderation. Every time period, comb through new influencers manually, for example those breaking 100K followers. For each, inspect how they came to power. Valuable, widely loved content? Or toxic engagement games? If it's the latter, dampen the effect, tune the alghoritm, etc.

- Topic spam. Twitter has "topics", great way to engage in a niche. But they're all engagement farmed. Go through these topics manually every once in a while and use human judgement to tackle the worst offenders (and behaviors)

- Allow for negative feedback (dislike) but with a cap. In case of a dislike mob, take away their ability to dislike or cap it.

Note how none of these potential measures address what it is that you said, it addresses behavior: the very obvious misuse/abuse of the system. In that sense I agree with the author. Also, it doesn't require AI. The patterns are incredibly obvious.

All of this said, the above would probably make Twitter quite an empty place. Because escalated outrage is the product.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#544
post #244

Every single social media platform that has ever existed makes the same fundamental mistake. They believe that they just have to remove or block the bad actors and bad content and that will make the platform good. The reality is everyone , myself included, can be and will be a bad actor. How do you build and run a "social media" product when the very act of letting anyone respond to anyone with anything is itself the…

You're confusing bad actors with bad behavior . Bad behavior is something good people do from time to time because they get really worked up about a specific topic or two. Bad actors are people who act bad all the time. There may be some of those but they're not the majority by far (and yes, sometimes normal people turn into bad actors because they get upset about a given thing that they can't talk about anything els…

> Bad actors are people who act bad all the time

I'd argue that bad actors are people that behave badly "on purpose". Their goals are different than the normal actor. Bad actors want to upset or scare people. Normal actors want to connect with, learn from, or persuade others.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#545

At least one missing element is that of reputation . I don't think it should work exactly like it does in the real world, but the absence of it seems to always lead to major problems. The cost of being a jerk online is too low - it's almost entirely free of any consequences. Put another way, not everyone deserves a megaphone. Not everyone deserves to chime in on any conversation they want. The promise of online discu…

The Internet needs to have a verified public identity / reputation system especially with deep fakes becoming more and more pervasive/easier to create. Trolls can troll all they want but if they want to be serious with their words then back it up with his or her online verified public Internet /reputation ID. If this is one of Musk's goals with Twitter he didn't overpay. The Internet definitely needs such a system..h…

It's worth noting that Twitter gets a lot of flak for permanently banning people, but that those people were all there under their real names. Regardless of your opinion on the bans, verifying that they were indeed banning e.g. Steve Bannon would not have helped the decision making process around his ban any easier.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#546

It seems like he's arguing that people claiming moderation is censoring them are wrong, because moderation of large platforms is dispassionate and focused on limiting behavior no one likes, rather than specific topics. I have no problem believing this is true for the vast majority of moderation decisions. But I think the argument fails because it only takes a few exceptions or a little bit of bias in this process to…

Rules against hate speech will disproportionately affect males. Does that mean they’re biased against men? If so, is that even a bad thing?

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#547
post #61

Here's a radical idea: let me moderate my own shit! Twitter is a subscription-based system (by this, I mean that I have to subscribe to someone's content) so if I subscribe to someone and don't like what they say then buh-bye! Let me right click on a comment/tweet (I don't use social media so not sure of the exact terminology the kids use these days) with the options of: - Hide this comment - Hide all comments in thi…

You're not Twitter's customer. Advertisers are. And they don't want their brands to be associated with unpleasant content.

To quote the article...

> MAYBE sometimes an advertiser will get mad, but a backroom sales conversation will usually get them back once the whole thing blows over.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#548
post #529

Twitter is text based. Video games have had text based profanity filters for online games for years. Make it easy for users to define a regex list saved locally. On the backend train a model that filters images of gore and genitals. Aim users who opt in to that experience at that filtered stream. This problem does not require a long winded thesis.

why do you think nobody else has tried this / had any success with this approach?

Because we focus on abstract problem statements, coded appeals to authority (as if ex-Reddit CEO is that special; there are a few), rather than concrete engineering?

User demand to control what they see is there. It’s why TV was successful; don’t like what’s on History? Check out Animal Planet.

Tech CEOs need their genius validated and refuse to concede anyone else knows what’s best for themselves. What everyone else sees is a problem for a smurt CEO to micromanage to death, of course.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#549

At least one missing element is that of reputation . I don't think it should work exactly like it does in the real world, but the absence of it seems to always lead to major problems. The cost of being a jerk online is too low - it's almost entirely free of any consequences. Put another way, not everyone deserves a megaphone. Not everyone deserves to chime in on any conversation they want. The promise of online discu…

Maybe? Reputation systems can devolve into rewarding groupthink. It's a classic "you get what you measure" conundrum, where once it becomes clear that an opinion / phrase / meme is popular, it's easy to farm reputation by repeating it. I like your comment about "track record of insightful, levelheaded conversation", but that introduces another abstraction. Who measures insight or levelheadedness, and how to avoid tha…

Yeah, definitely potential for problems and downsides. And I don't know of any implementations that have gotten it right. And to some degree, I imagine all such systems (online or not) can be gamed, so it's also important for the designers of such a system to not try to solve every problem either.

And maybe you do have some form of moderation, but not in the sense of moderation of your agreement/disagreement with ideas but moderation of behavior - like a debate moderator - based on the rules of the community. Your participation in a community would involve reading, posting as desired once you've been in a community for a certain amount of time, taking a turn at evaluating N comments that have been flagged, and taking a turn at evaluating disputes about evaluations, with the latter 2 being spread around so as to not take up a lot of time (though, having those duties could also reinforce your investment in a community). The reach/visibility of your posts would be driven off your reputation in that community, though people reading could also control how much they see too - maybe I only care about hearing from more established leaders while you are more open to hearing from newer / lower reputation voices too. An endorsement from someone with a higher reputation counts more than an endorsement from someone who just recently joined, though not so huge of a difference that it's impossible for new ideas to break through.

As far as who measures, it's your peers - the other members of the community, although there needs to be a ripple effect of some sort - if you endorse bad behavior, then that negatively effects your reputation. If someone does a good job of articulating a point, but you ding them simply because you disagree with that point, then someone else can ding you. If you consistently participate in the community duties well, it helps your reputation.

The above is of course super hand-wavy and incomplete, but something along those lines has IMO a good shot of at least being a better alternative to some of what we have today and, who knows, could be quite good.

Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation

#550

At least one missing element is that of reputation . I don't think it should work exactly like it does in the real world, but the absence of it seems to always lead to major problems. The cost of being a jerk online is too low - it's almost entirely free of any consequences. Put another way, not everyone deserves a megaphone. Not everyone deserves to chime in on any conversation they want. The promise of online discu…

I agree with the basic idea that we want reputation, but the classic concept of reputation as a single number in the range (-inf, inf) is useless for solving real-world problems the way we solve them in the real world.

Why? Because my reputation in meatspace is precisely 0 with 99.9% of the world's population. They haven't heard of me, and they haven't heard of anyone who has heard of me. Meanwhile, my reputation with my selected set of friends and relatives is fairly high, and undoubtedly my reputation with some small set of people who are my enemies is fairly low. And this is all good, because no human being can operate in a world where everyone has an opinion about them all the time.

Global reputation is bad, and giving anyone a megaphone so they can chime into any conversation they want is bad, full stop. Megaphone-usage should not be a democratic thing where a simple majority either affirms or denies your ability to suddenly make everyone else listen to you. People have always been able to speak to their tribes/affinity groups/whatever you want to call them without speaking to the entire state/country/world, and if we want to build systems that will be resilient then we need to mimic that instead of pretending that reputation is a zero-sum global game.

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