Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Don’t call it a comeback: Java is still champ

github.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

541–550 of 557 posts

Re: Don’t call it a comeback: Java is still champ

#541

Post by mark_l_watson »

vasili111 wrote: post #518
mark_l_watson wrote: post #324

Sun Microsystems had a link to my blog on the Java home page for about a year. I had attended the first Java World Tour, blogged about it, and for 15 years I was the first “hit” searching for “Java consultant”. Thank you Java. All that said, I don’t use Java much anymore, preferring to use Clojure when I need the rich JVM ecosystem. I do follow new Java language features and usually try them.

What you think about Scala? How you tried it?

I used Scala many years ago, mainly because I took the language designer’s Functional Programming with Scala class.

Re: Don’t call it a comeback: Java is still champ

#542

Post by vasili111 »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #541
vasili111 wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you think about Scala? How you tried it?

I used Scala many years ago, mainly because I took the language designer’s Functional Programming with Scala class.

What is your opinion about Scala? I have not tried it so was interesting what thinks about Scala person that was using Java, Scala and Clojure.

Re: Don’t call it a comeback: Java is still champ

#543

Post by LaGrange »

mcculley wrote: post #534
LaGrange wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has not been my experience at all. This has been my experience with software written in Java by developers who think it was not their experience. > In a Java Swing app we built for a similar use case ...oh no. I actually tend to associate Swing UI with weird, undefined behaviors, and whenever I'd look under the hood, it would nearly _always_ be due to them trying to swallow runtime exceptions. Pure hubris, as…

I have the logs from my deployed apps. I know exactly how many times my users are getting those exceptions. We use those logs to fix the bugs and improve our apps. You seem to have a lot of opinions about my apps from your own unfortunate experiences. Hubris is a word that brings to mind.

You do realize that “I have logs from my deployed desktop apps” only makes things sound worse?

And if it’s professional environment - that creates _powerful_ biases. Essentially, I’ve seen apps with developers acting _exactly_ like you, up to and including the line about logs. You might be the one exception - but somehow I doubt it, and I certainly won’t trust your word on it. Automatically logging desktop activity makes me trust you less, if anything. In particular, I don’t believe you prioritize issues the way your users do. That would, literally, be a first.

Re: Don’t call it a comeback: Java is still champ

#544

Post by pkolaczk »

kaba0 wrote: post #536
pkolaczk wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a comment above you've said Java memory allocation had performance of arena allocators. This benchmark shows such statement is very far from thruth. It is not even close. The best you can shoot for with Java ZGC is the overhead level of naive C malloc/free (not arena) and only if you give it 5x more heap. You can do better only if you are ok with switching to a GC that does STW, in addition to overblown heap. But…

I didn’t disagree with your last sentence, but nor is the benchmark evidence against “Java memory allocation having the performance of arena allocators”. The benchmark hardcodes additional information about the problem not available/encodeable in Java according to the rules, so Java has to decide at runtime the lifecycle of each object. That of course have an overhead, but it is not allocation rate, or deallocation r…

> That of course have an overhead, but it is not allocation rate, or deallocation rate, as both of those are just pointer bump and reuse region

Sure. GC makes some particular operations faster at the expense of adding overhead in a few other places (thrashing the caches by scanning the heap, using precious memory bandwidth to move stuff around, pausing threads of the app from time to time). However, from the developer and end-user perspective it does not matter that allocation is a pointer-bump and deallocation is a no-op. What matters is the performance of all the things together.

If there is a performance problem caused by heap allocation, I find it much easier to locate it in a traditional program using manual memory management under-the hood, than in a managed app with tracing GC. This is because the cost is directly associated with the code doing the allocations / deallocations. In managed app, the cost is spread out through unrelated code.

Re: Don’t call it a comeback: Java is still champ

#545

Post by peterashford »

pwinnski wrote: post #291
ralmidani wrote: post #260

Java was actually not bad for me in class when learning software design and data structures, but soul-crushing to work with in the real world. Mindless, unnecessary use of getters/setters, interfaces, and AbstractFactoryImpls. Hiding almost every piece of functionality behind 10+ layers of indirection. Dependency Injection with Spring. They all make it feel like Java draws folks who actually __enjoy__ writing bloated…

I don't think this is an issue with Java, it's an issue with Spring. I'm baffled by the popularity of Spring.

Yeah, I've used Java on and off for years and never used any of that enterprise stuff.

Re: Don’t call it a comeback: Java is still champ

#546

Post by peterashford »

tomohawk wrote: post #363
ralmidani wrote: post #260

Java was actually not bad for me in class when learning software design and data structures, but soul-crushing to work with in the real world. Mindless, unnecessary use of getters/setters, interfaces, and AbstractFactoryImpls. Hiding almost every piece of functionality behind 10+ layers of indirection. Dependency Injection with Spring. They all make it feel like Java draws folks who actually __enjoy__ writing bloated…

Java has reached the status of Cobol - it is immortal because it is everywhere and has been around a long time. Because of that, there are a lot of Java devs. Our team works in Go, and so we get a few Java devs in once in a while as new positions open up. The biggest change for them is to get out of archonaut mode and stop overdesigning everything. After going through a 3-6 month cleanse, it's fun to see them complai…

Hmm... I'm using go commercially now for the first time and I thought it was pretty wordy. Especially in error handling.

Re: Don’t call it a comeback: Java is still champ

#547

Post by peterashford »

skybrian wrote: post #163
falcolas wrote: post #5

Java's adequate. It's like a Toyota Corolla (insert your boring car of choice here if you don't feel this one works for the analogy). Not the prettiest, not the fastest, not the most efficient. But it gets you from point A to point B with little fuss or muss. I totally get why companies adopt and standardize on it. Do I use it for personal projects? Nope. Because it's not fun to "drive". For that, I pick the equivale…

I wouldn’t use Java again because I am done dealing with the brokenness of Maven and Gradle. They are the opposite of “little fuss and muss.” The Go build tools fit your analogy better.

You dont have to use those tools, you know

Re: Don’t call it a comeback: Java is still champ

#548

Post by mark_l_watson »

vasili111 wrote: post #542
mark_l_watson wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used Scala many years ago, mainly because I took the language designer’s Functional Programming with Scala class.

What is your opinion about Scala? I have not tried it so was interesting what thinks about Scala person that was using Java, Scala and Clojure.

I blogged a comparison 10 years ago: https://mark-watson.blogspot.com/2012/10/clojure-vs-scala-sm...

Re: Don’t call it a comeback: Java is still champ

#549

Post by mcculley »

LaGrange wrote: post #543
mcculley wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the logs from my deployed apps. I know exactly how many times my users are getting those exceptions. We use those logs to fix the bugs and improve our apps. You seem to have a lot of opinions about my apps from your own unfortunate experiences. Hubris is a word that brings to mind.

You do realize that “I have logs from my deployed desktop apps” only makes things sound worse? And if it’s professional environment - that creates _powerful_ biases. Essentially, I’ve seen apps with developers acting _exactly_ like you, up to and including the line about logs. You might be the one exception - but somehow I doubt it, and I certainly won’t trust your word on it. Automatically logging desktop activity m…

I am describing applications deployed in commercial settings. This is not a privacy issue, if that is what you are talking about.

Again, you seem have very strong opinions on incorrect assumptions. I’m kinda bemused by that.

Re: Don’t call it a comeback: Java is still champ

#550

Post by dopamean »

vasili111 wrote: post #519
dopamean wrote: post #67

I spent almost all of my career writing Ruby before I ended up at a company that required me to write mostly Kotlin (a bit of scala here and there too). After a few years of Kotlin I don't want to use anything else. There's a bit more ceremony to getting things set up but the experience of writing Kotlin with Intellij IDEA has been so wonderful I'm happy to keep doing it.

What you can say about Scala?

I hate it.
Post reply on HN